Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 IANAL but... Is 'unlawful' synonymous with 'illegal'? As far as divorce courts are concerned concerned adultery is unlawful, but it isn't illegal. It's what my English master would call "A nice point" Murder is illegal because there is a specific law forbidding it. What Boris did was not against any law on the Statute Book, but the Supreme Court has decided that it is unlawful despite there being no laws broken. One is a clear fact, the other is a matter of judgement and, now, precedent. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamperMan Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 The Blinder of this all is not the immediate effect but the precedent it has created. The unelected, not answerable to any one Supreme Court truly is all powerful. If you are a millionaire you can with the Supreme Court over rule a democratically elected government. Yet if they had gone the other way the Supreme Court would have lost powers and they would not want that. Putin is probably as I write this finding ways to manipulate 12 unelected judges and with some Gas money we’ve paid him finding away to over through the government, and We’d hand him the keys. Each political event just amazes and dispairs me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPid Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 14 hours ago, jeff oakley said: We have gone down a very dangerous path with the law being used by the remainer lobby. You have to bare in mind that the leave campaign have been referred to the NCA (The National Crime Agency) due to their conduct during the run up to the vote. I have dealt with the NCA and they are formiddable! They do not get involved in anything but very serious crime. (that is illegal acts, not acting unlawfully). It makes me smile that the leave campaign relied heavily on the slogan of "taking back control"..and ..."we want a return to British sovereignty and control over our own laws"... THEN the Supreme Court rules that prorogation was unlawful...... Leavers then say.... "Yeah... No.... Not that law"....... 😂 Regardless of which way anyone voted, and we are all entirely sick of Brexit and politics, can anyone remember if there are still any benefits to leaving the EU (which haven't already been debunked)?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 It was declared only yesterday that there is no case to answer by the Leave campaign. Grauniad choking on bad news 😏 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPeffers Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 4 hours ago, MrPid said: ... can anyone remember if there are still any benefits to leaving the EU (which haven't already been debunked)?... Once we have left and Comrade Corbyn is in No.10 he will be free to run up whatever debt and Budget Deficit he likes as outside the EU he won't be constrained by an EU 3% deficit limit (which has recently been temporarily overruled for France as a favour for being one of the founder members).....hence Corbyn wants out but cannot let his younger Labour voters know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPeffers Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 With Parliament having missed 3 sitting days (10-12 Sep inclusive, before the conference season) you might be tempted to think our MPs would be right into the task of sorting out a manageable Brexit they would vote through.....but NO: instead it seems like another episode of the drama 'The only way is Westminster' with shouting at each other more important. Of course the most important thing to many MPs is their image, photo opportunities and being seen on as many shows as possible; be it political or quiz shows. The Supreme Court move seems to try to reinstate Parliamentary democracy but unfortunately the Parliament is itself undemocratic. Many MPs have changed Party and Sarah Wollaston (Conservative) at the 2017 General Election stood on a manifesto to deliver Brexit, even if no deal. In February 2019 she resigned from the Conservative Party and joined The Independent Group, later styled Change UK. Four months later, she quit that party to sit as an Independent MP. Then on 14 August 2019, she joined the Liberal Democrats. As we know the Lib(Un)Dems conference has decided the party will stand on a Revoke manifesto and will Revoke article 50 on day one should they become the next majority Government. Apparently Sarah Wollaston sees no problem in changing her stance from the 2017 Tory manifesto to the 2019 Lib one and no by-election to let her constituents have their say. Some are saying 9 of the 11 Supreme Court Justices are Remainers but at least an 11-0 result avoids finger pointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 Robert Mugabe used to get a vote of >90% of the votes. Just saying... 🤐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 14 hours ago, MrPid said: It makes me smile that the leave campaign relied heavily on the slogan of "taking back control"..and ..."we want a return to British sovereignty and control over our own laws"... THEN the Supreme Court rules that prorogation was unlawful...... Leavers then say.... "Yeah... No.... Not that law"....... 😂 Or... The irony of Remain using the Supreme Court to over-rule prorogation. If we were to remain then the Government would have leave to appeal to the European Court because the Supreme Court of the UK would not actually be allowed to have the final word. Double standards abound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 24/09/2019 at 21:48, jim_l said: Still dare to believe Blatters? Not me, I think Brexit as a concept is over now, I don't fear for me, I'm 64 and there is little damage remaining can do me. The future for our children looks bleak to me, within an EU of which Corbyn himself said "It is undemocratic, the power is not with the MEPs, it is with the European council and the European commission" Parliament are doing their best to go against the will of the people and that is outrageous. I may go against the will of parliament and stop paying tax. I'm sure the supreme court would back me if I could figure out a way to make the case using recent precedents... As mentioned, unlawful is a far cry from illegal which is a nuance I missed yesterday. Those in opposition to HM Government and Brexit will shout long and hard for Boris to resign or for a vote of no confidence to force a general election. Corbyn has again stated that he won't vote for a GE until no deal is off the table and it isn't. Mori polling suggests Corbyn has the lowest approval of any Labour leader since records began (in 1977...) so he escapes comparison with Foot and Wilson but whichever way you shake it, it's bad. BUT there haven't been any polls since the verdict so that's the next benchmark we need to look at. If Labour still trail the Tories significantly (as they do now) then Boris can call for a GE knowing that Corbyn has little chance of a win and will likely surrender, and a GE loss for Corbyn would be the end of him with the party descending in to even more chaos. I'll bet we'd see the rise of a new "New Labour" from the ashes... And in all this, NO-ONE is mentioning the Lib-Dems... I do believe that Labour with Corbyn are un-electable. And yesterdays announcement about drug patents is so badly thought out that I genuinely fear for the supply of essential meds if he makes this happen. Corbyn would be dangerous as a PM. And Boris yet again goaded the opposition by challenging them to call a GE. Corbyn surrendered... again... And what exactly is Labours Brexit policy? I heard several commentators on the radio after his speech and whilst I am more informed, the information is confusing and not helpful in any way. At least Boris has a clear policy. We leave, and with any luck we leave on Oct 31. And it's nowhere near 23:59 yet. There are 5 weeks to go. Do I believe Brexit will happen? Yes. And I have 17.5 million other people with the same ambition and with a referendum win in our pockets as hard evidence. And that's the bottom line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash test dummy Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 6 hours ago, Blatman said: As mentioned, unlawful is a far cry from illegal............ This is very true. There is a distinct difference Unlawful is against the law and illegal is.................................................... a sick bird!!! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 25/09/2019 at 10:03, DamperMan said: The Blinder of this all is not the immediate effect but the precedent it has created. The unelected, not answerable to any one Supreme Court truly is all powerful. If you are a millionaire you can with the Supreme Court over rule a democratically elected government. Yet if they had gone the other way the Supreme Court would have lost powers and they would not want that. Putin is probably as I write this finding ways to manipulate 12 unelected judges and with some Gas money we’ve paid him finding away to over through the government, and We’d hand him the keys. Each political event just amazes and dispairs me. Me to, I can't believe how low Parliament has sunk, they are living in the sewers right now. As Geoffrey Cox said yesterday this is a Dead Parliament. They can talk all they want but nothing is going to change or happen, total waste of time them being their. We urgently need a general election to give a party a majority so that the country can move forward in whatever direction the voters want. This no-mans land is very damaging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesT Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Someone needs to address parliament and repeat or update Oliver Cromwell's speech for the Dissolution of the Long Parliament, given to the House of Commons, 20 April 1653 "It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money. Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter’d your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil’d this sacred place, and turn’d the Lord’s temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress’d, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamperMan Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 To be fair I’m sure comparing prostitutes with MP’s is an insult to prostitutes 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPid Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 1 hour ago, JamesT said: Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter’d your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth? Don't forget, Cromwell was responsible for the massacres in Drogheda and Wexford which shaped Ireland's bl**** future, and continuing conflict from which tensions continue to this day! Whilst for some he is a hero, and others he is simply a war criminal who was responsible for killing a King and anybody else who stood in his way. No doubt, politics is a shambles and Boris should be proud of himself for what he has achieved in such a short time. Nobody else has lost their majority so quickly, lied to the queen, unlawfully shut down parliament, lost any bargaining power with the EU and walked out of parliament when asked to explain himself. However, is there a better alternative to Boris?..... Not that i have seen. Looking at his ruthlessness, I can see comparisons to Cromwell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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