2020 Speed Series regulations - draft copy

[XTR2Turbo]

7 hours ago, tkm_dave said:

Lots of valid and balanced points for/against the new set of regs.

 

However...

 

The regs are decided and set in stone pending MSA approval. Lets see how they go for a season of racing and resume discussions next October with the benefit of hindsight  Generally we are making hypothetical cases that may play out differently in reality. Anyone who made points now, for or against, that turn out to be correct are welcome to say to me "I told you so" at the 2020 awards evening 🤣

John did say fixed unless any glaring omissions. Personally I think there needs to be greater clarity on the club policy on sequential boxes vs what the blue book says so people can plan.  It’s still not clear to me how free gear boxes fits with S12. I also think as Woodman says  it is not right imho that someone can gets max points just because the only one in their class on the day. I previously suggested that to get max points you should be within a defined percentage class of the class of the fastest Westfield on the day. 
eg W1 within 1% of W2 etc.  I assume we have data to do this from historic target times. 
 

David 

[maurici]

46 minutes ago, XTR2Turbo said:

. 
eg W1 within 1% of W2 etc.  I assume we have data to do this from historic target times. 
 

David 

And with that... we go back to the target times... and to do that, no need to touch anything...

Petty difficult to do a fair system 

 

[graham frankland]

On 02/11/2019 at 11:10, syman84 said:

Good point definitely needs clarification 

The same question arises not only for a(complete kit supplied by the factory and then parts changed during the build) but also for every Westfield that has been updated to a sequential gearbox during it's life  as well as those built to a desgn conceived by its owner/builder.

The wide variety of the technical configurations of Westfield cars both road going and modified is not intended or able to be controlled by the MS UK Regs!

Glutey     

[graham frankland]

12 hours ago, Chris King - Webmaster and Joint North East AO said:

I think that there will always be winners and losers when any changes get introduced. 
 

Anything that encourages new blood into the sport and/or widens it’s appeal has to be applauded. 
 

Graham makes a good point about single entrant rounds - what’s the plan there?

If the losers who are disadvantaged drop out and are greater in number than the winners then it is an exercise in total futility!

Anything that will definately encourage new blood etc should be appauded only if the changes do have a chance of doing what they say on the tin!

Glutey 

[graham frankland]

12 hours ago, syman84 said:

I have had a little think over the last day or so and the biggest change is for those guys in classes C,D,E,F as they were in the middle no-mans land regards on the day running you either run a heavly modified car but with 1B tyres to run in road going or if you have 1C's  ZZR's Etc on then you are against the slick shod boys.

 

Glad you think this is what is needed as i put you in that well developed no mans land area= step back road tyres and run in W2 or embrace the slick and go to W4, I really think this will help competition.

 

Is there anyway of running this years results against the proposed changes and see if John H still comes out as champion if he does then the system works. I may have a go @Tigger @Terry Everall - WSCC Competition Secretary do either of you have a master excel sheet that I can play with for this years results so i dont have to copy them all from the results page.

 

the ramblings of a sleep deprived father

cheers  

 

 

 

 

[graham frankland]

The question of classes on the day versus the Westfield Classes is a very interesting and personal one!  My position on this is I am a Westfield owner and a member of the SS which is my first competitive objective, if I win something on the day then that is a very welcome bonus. 

It is another matter if you want to win all the on the day classes as well!

Since the 1C tyre debacle I have come against some very powerful and exotic equipment in the classes I have been put in on the day including competing directly against Delboy and Bunny! Hey Ho!

Glutey

 

 

 

[graham frankland]

20 hours ago, Howard said:

Graham, you agree that the Speed Series needs a makeover.  Can you not embrace the change with a positive outlook?  I for one felt the Speed Series was becoming stale and I suspect I'm not the only one.  It needed more than a few tweaks here and there. I find the changes rejuvenating.

I think putting BECs in their own class would be counterproductive, and I'm not convinced there is a significant overall performance difference when on the same tyres. They'll make gains in some areas and CECs will gain in others. I suspect the real difference is who's behind the wheel. 

 

 

Howard

In my idle moments at events I do some research with Westfield owners who are are not running in the speed series and to a man I have never been told it was because we ran TT's that they were not in the SS! It was more to do with image, attitude lack of inclusiveness and being a northern centric championship.

If the proposed changes to regs had been linked directly to some form of formalised "Customer" research/feedback then the subjectiveness of the proposed changes would be greatly reduced!

Clearly you are at odds with the opinion of Terry regarding the performance differences of BEC over CEC's as stated in the Busa v 2.0 Litre thread on the Speed Series forum towards the end of Oct, maybe you have not seen it?

I have made a proposal to seperate BEC's into their seperate classes in an attempt to reduce the Arms Race Effect of the proposed changes!

You may not know but the BEC entrants asked for such a change when the ACW 1800 cc car was top of the pile. The request was rejected by the SSOT at the time but in an attempt to support the proposed First Past the Post Scoring System I would support such a move now!

I have no idea what you mean by un-productive in your response!

Glutey   

[graham frankland]

10 hours ago, woodman said:

To be fair to the SSOT I dont think the drop off in entrants has anything to do with them.

It is down to , IMHO, the relentless assult on us by the MSUK, combined with the big increase in entry costs and all the clobber we need to wear.

 

The new class system does reflect the lower entry numbers

But it probably means any cars running in CDEF spec will have little chance of overall honours

 

I am still a fan of the TT system as it rewards fast driving in any car regardless of the number of competitors

 

It does seem to me that for instance Terry and Matt could be battling it out, trading hundreths, breaking National records etc  BUT score no more points than me driving my car up the Hill in reverse!

Stu

If you make a list of the 30 + SS entrants we have lost over the last 2 years and put a reason code next to each namber I don't think there will be as many as you perceive would be down to MSA interference and new rules!

 

Glutey

 

[Rogers79]

For what it’s worth I’ve owned 3 Westfield’s over 21 years two CEC one BEC. Each car had different characteristics in terms of power delivery and handling. If I could put all the best bits of 3 cars into one I’d make a fortune!! I therefore don’t see the issue with both being in the same class. Time in the car outweighs what gearbox you run in my opinion. Also having done SS events and other championship events the thing that makes the SS less appealing is lack of cars on the day competing and the number of classes. Oh and the fact as so few have entered class E the last few years I’ve won a basically one horse race and am not eligible for a pot! I think the changes are positive and will gain momentum for more people to register. 
for the avoidance of doubt in the BEC I’ve beaten CEC but they have also beaten me. Ambition and talent go hand in hand with gearbox and tyres. 

[Howard]

Graham, I saw the post and, indeed, commented in it.  I wouldn't say I was at odds.  But I think you're making more of the BEC vs CEC thing than it warrants. 

I didn't say unproductive, I said counterproductive and I was referring to the proposition of separate classes for BECs being at odds with what the SSOT is trying to achieve.

[graham frankland]

10 hours ago, tkm_dave said:

Lots of valid and balanced points for/against the new set of regs.

 

However...

 

The regs are decided and set in stone pending MSA approval. Lets see how they go for a season of racing and resume discussions next October with the benefit of hindsight  Generally we are making hypothetical cases that may play out differently in reality. Anyone who made points now, for or against, that turn out to be correct are welcome to say to me "I told you so" at the 2020 awards evening 🤣

I do have an un-easy feeling about the whole process the SSOT has adopted here!

1) Radical wholesale changes to the regs without any advanced warning of the range of changes!

2) New regs being finalised before the MS UK regs and tyre list have been published!

3) Dictatorial decision to submit the proposed changes without any opportunity for consulation!

 

The 2020 awards do will be a smaller event because of the reduced number of classes/awards available to be won!

 

Am I missing something here or is a stich up in favour of BEC entrants?

 

Glutey

 

 

 

[Howard]

Further to what Jez has just posted, I was eligible to enter class B this year but was persuaded by Keith and Martin to stay in D.  Had I gone in B I would have finished 4th overall instead of 8th(?). But B was very empty and I had a good scrap with Martin and Keith and enjoyed it more than I would have being in B.

[XTR2Turbo]

2 hours ago, maurici said:

And with that... we go back to the target times... and to do that, no need to touch anything...

Petty difficult to do a fair system 

 

No we don’t. Target times set all scores (not that I think it was bad) here the rule just kicks in when poor attendance in a class on the day

[stephenh]

Is there really such an advantage in a BEC compared to a CEC? John Loudon seemed to be quite competitive when he moved up to class G. I wouldn't be happy to see more classes rather than fewer, for the reasons given in my previous posts.

Anyway, the SSOT are to be applauded for getting the draft regs. out so promptly, so potential competitors can start planning for next season.  

[stephenh]

I've just done a tiny bit of research. In 2016, 

In class A2 only one driver competed.

In class B2 3 drivers competed, but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class C 4 drivers competed, 3 of whom did 10 or more events.

In class D only 2 drivers competed, only 1 of whom did 10 or more events.

In class E 4 drivers competed but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class F there were more competitors, but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class G 3 drivers competed, but only 2 did 10 or more events.

In class H there were more competitors, but only 3 did 10 or more events.

So doesn't that show that there were too many classes?  There were 4 classes in which, in that year, if a driver did a full compliment of 10 or more events you were virtually guaranteed to win your class for the year.And if the classes had remained the same, it would only get worse as we have fewer and fewer competitors taking part.