Prorogation of Parliament.

[Alan France]

I voted based on the Government document saying a vote leave would mean leaving all the key EU institutions so nothing has changed for me. I think many have been surprised at how much has been given over to EU control without us knowing over 40 odd years.

 

I was happy with the original “trade club.” When I agree to buy something from Waitrose I don’t expect to also be able to set the Waitrose policy on tax or law as part of the deal.

 

Time for an election.

[corsechris]

I voted leave, with a working assumption it would be painful for some years after the event, but longer term, much better for us. I was in no way swayed or influenced by either sides arguments as I simply don’t trust any of the lying b******ds.

 

I firmly believe that politicians have three stages of being. Thinking about the next lie, actually speaking that lie, just finished a lie and working up to stage 1 again.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

The Lib Dems may want another referendum (good old EU tactic: keep running them until the desired result is achieved) but if the result is again to leave, Swinson is on record as saying that the Lib Dems would not respect that result. 😲

[DamperMan]

It's rather amazing that the trade club evolved into something quite so big or all powerful.     It's in the interest of all the countries of the EU to have a good exit with the UK after all they want to sell us wine, cars etc, we are a big economy.  Also if there people vote to leave they want there country to be able to do so in a sensible way..   But The EU is not interested in what is good for its Member states, only in it self,  by ensuring non of them leave.      

[DonPeffers]

2 hours ago, AdamR said:

 

I think the Lib Dems want a second referendum because they are (seemingly) the only party who currently look at evidence to make decisions.

 

In reality it didn't take the Liberal Un-Democrats 3 years to look at evidence to make decision to reject the 2016 EU referendum result as ONE DAY AFTER the referendum result   they were not accepting it.

 

Saturday 25 June 2016   Headline-- Liberal Democrats pledge to keep Britain in the EU after next election.

 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-result-lib-dems-remain-liberal-democrats-live-policy-stay-leave-a7103186.html

 

"The Liberal Democrats will stand at the next general election on a platform of derailing Brexit and keeping Britain in the European Union, the party has announced.

Leader Tim Farron said on Saturday night that he would be “clear and unequivocal” with voters that if elected it would set aside the referendum result and keep Britain in the EU."

[DonPeffers]

4 hours ago, Alan France said:

Just look at the way the remainer Hammond agreed funds with the European Investment Bank (EIB) in the withdrawal agreement.

 

Our Capital and retained earnings held in the EIB is £11b. Hammond agreed we would take back just £3.5b when we leave. The other £7.6b is retained by the EU for the benefit of the other 27 members. That £3.5b will be repaid to us over 12 years, the final payment due in 2030 AND no interest will be paid over that period.

 

This from a chancellor who was trying to find money for public services. Anyone else seen that reported in the remain press or TV?

 

3 hours ago, AdamR said:

Nope.

 

Anyone seen anything factual reported from either remain or leave camps?

 

Didn't think so

 

I found 'Cashing out of the European Investment Bank | Financial Times--Deciding what happens to UK’s 16% shareholding'  article from March 2017 Financial Times.

 

It will be protracted getting this money back as most is on long term loan to poorer EU states and who knows what happens in a default.

[Alan France]

1 hour ago, DonPeffers said:

It will be protracted getting this money back as most is on long term loan to poorer EU states and who knows what happens in a default.

 

Agreed but recent EIB "profits" have been £2b so there are funds. Surely if you invest in a bank, and that bank provides loans, you don't just right off your investment when you move to a different bank?

[DonPeffers]

30/11/2018   https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/news_corner/news/eu-approves-disbursement-€500-million-macro-financial-assistance-ukraine_en    

"EU approves disbursement of €500 million in Macro-Financial Assistance to Ukraine.

 

With this disbursement, the total Macro-Financial Assistance extended to Ukraine by the EU since 2014 will reach €3.3 billion, the largest amount of such assistance directed at any non-EU country."

 

[jim_l]

On 05/09/2019 at 17:06, Blatman said:

 

It's not a belief system, it was a referendum, and the majority voted to leave. Lets imagine this was a general election and Party A won by 52 - 48. Would you actually believe that despite the result, Party B should be in power? 

 

Believe what you will but in the last referendum that we really REALLY cared about, Leave won. Irrespective of belief or party or whatever machinations we hang our hats on, the result of a democratic election should, and indeed must be honoured.

 

To me any POLITICIAN who says "we can stop Brexit" should resign because they clearly and fundamentally do not believe in or understand how democracy works. 

 

We have ceased to be a representative democracy, the people voted to leave but then we left that in the hands of parliament , who favour staying in. There isn't now, and won't be after another election, a majority in parliament for any means of leaving. The most likely scenario is another referendum, by which time people will have had enough. 

 

We need to identify all of the (550) parliamentarians that were elected based on 'Leave' manifestos. Then we need to identify the (250 -300) of those that have obstructed the process, and deselect them. 

 

More than anything I want to come out, couldn't care less about immigration or sovereignty to be honest, but my chart above shows that working men and women have been shafted in the EU while corporations and millionaires have partied, .  We have people working full time but depending on benefits to get by, because the EU is a low wage economy. Instead of collecting tax and paying off our national debt, the government is borrowing money to bridge the gap between what people are paid and what it cost to live, because the EU is a low wage economy. 

 

Why is the EU a low wage economy?  There are 10 EU countries where the minimum wage is less than €500 a month, that stuff can be done there and moved here with no quotas or tariffs. Why would I do anything here where I need to pay my workers €1500 a month? 

[corsechris]

The endless whine from the remain politicians is that we didn’t vote to leave with no deal. Correct, we voted stay or leave. The majority chose leave. Get it done or resign.

[DamperMan]

[Blatman]

11 hours ago, AdamR said:

I can't honestly believe that anyone sane who voted to leave in June 2016 would have done so had that been a choice between 'remain' and 'no deal'.

 

But that wasn't the choice. Yes the Liberals and Labour are trying their best to make us believe it was but it just plain wasn't and no amount of wishing will make it so. 

The vote was in or out. We voted out. NO-ONE voted for a deal of any kind. The "deal" is all about politics getting in the way of the will of the people and that is the scandal here. For all the press bashing Boris it seems to be that he at least understands that he is the servant of the people and the people voted out, plain and simple. No deal, no coercion, no corruption. We were offered a choice and whether we now selectively decide to believe politicians or not, we voted out. 

[DonPeffers]

Let's not forget it was the Westminster MPs who voted to allow the EU withdrawal referendum.

 

It was the MPs who decided what the question would be (obviously with hindsight there should have been a negotiated deal on the ballot paper--all 585 pages of it).

 

The MPs said they would respect the result.

 

Before the EU referendum vote, journalist Matthew Wright asked what would happen if the majority voting to Leave was just one?  The answer was only a simple majority was required so one would be enough (although in reality it would have led to endless recounts and expressions of erroneous voting).

 

In fact the majority was 1,269,501.

 

National totals

Remain           Leave

16,141,241    17,410,742

Total electorate: 46,500,001

Turnout: 72.2%

Rejected ballots: 25,359.

[Alan France]

I quite understand if the EU don’t want to adjust any of their rules to allow us to leave on our terms.

 

In that case we just leave, based on the 50 or so mini deals already agreed, flying, transport, drugs etc. Then we can both get on with our lives and use some of the £39b to subsidise for the worst tariffs. If VW find 10% tariffs painful we can do a deal against our lamb.

 

if no deal generates 10% and Trump goes 25% tariffs German automotive will probably want to talk.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

When people voted 'leave' I'm sure they didn't think leave meant half-leave with a few benefits and many shackles remaining. They thought leave meant a clean break. Anyway, the wording of Article 50 makes it clear that in the event of failure to reach an agreement, we'd leave without one and trade on WWT rules. It should also be remembered that if Gina Miller hadn't brought it to the High Court in November 2016 and received a ruling that Parliament must approve any agreement before it's accepted, we would have already left under Mrs May's half baked non-deal otherwise known as BrINO. None of the opposing parties have a credible alternative to 'no-deal'. EU refuses to change the deal already agreed with May, and Parliament rejects it three times. The alternative? Revoke Article 50 and remain. You'd almost think that's what the opposition to no-deal wants. 

 

What baffles me is why Corbyn, McDonnell and the Supreme Soviet of the Labour Party appear to want to either remain or have some form of deal. McDonnell's Marxist plans for the country would be impossible to achieve in the EU, and only a clean break makes them possible. Surely they aren't faking their opposition to leaving with no agreement for political gain are they?