Covid Vaccine Poll

[Steve (sdh2903)]

1 hour ago, corsechris said:

So the number is 5, not 9, and we know nothing about those people from this data, as in, would they be in the group that suffered 3 deaths or the larger group not detailed - the one with comorbidities/risk factors?

 

True. But the risk vs reward odds are still way too close in the younger ages IMHO. 

 

There's a much greater chance of my youngest being knocked over and injured on her 15 min walk to school and back every day than being harmed by covid. 

[Richard (OldStager)]

21 minutes ago, Captain Colonial said:

The repository of stupid is right here:

 

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

A sad read, I notice yesterdays death of Meatloaf is blamed on Covid, I am unable to find out if this was the 'only' reason he died or there were other factors at play. The family have not released the cause of death .

The only issue I have on the reporting of Covid deaths is when someone has had it within 28 days of their death and yet it was plainly nothing to do with the actual 'virus'.

I lost an eldely relative just before Christmas who caught Covid in hospital, he died from Dementia , yet Covid was put on his death cert, which then goes on to add to the overall death rate in some reports. For me this needs to stop as it is giving  false and overly inflated death rates, the YT Doc I watch suggests this could be 8 or 9 times the 'actual' Covid deaths.

 

I assume these anti-vaxxers are also flat earthers and moon landing deniers, believe what you want but don't spout your ideas to others.

[CosKev]

1 minute ago, OldStager said:

I am unable to find out if this was the 'only' reason he died or there were other factors at play.

 

Seems he had a few issues, as well as being over weight.

 

'Meat Loaf, who was severely asthmatic and battled a range of other health issues before the pandemic'

[corsechris]

I’ve said it before, the “within 28 days” figure is a very blunt tool IMO. A person could have a +ve test then get run over by a bus and it would still make that stat.

 

The only figure that makes sense to me is the excess deaths one. 
 

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

 

I can’t recall the exact figures now, but I think the excess deaths for the UK was around the 120k mark since covid arrived.

 

Deaths attributed purely to covid are around 17k, but I think that’s a tool just as blunt given just how many folk aren’t in 100% perfect health.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

3 hours ago, Captain Colonial said:

If reports are to be believed, Meatloaf died of Covid and was a vocal anti-vaxxer.  A sad loss of course, but just another contestant on the game show Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes 🤦‍♂️

 

From what I've read about Mr Loaf he was anti vaccination mandates. Which is very different to anti vax. His vaccination status has not been made public.

 

Agreed tho if he's un vaxed and with his reported health issues and age indeed a silly choice.

[jim_l]

 

Just to make sure we understand that we are not being misled, and we not talking 'only 120,000' by any measure. 

 

The number of deaths ‘within 28 days’ is used because death certificates are rarely completed on the day, and it takes 11 days or so to collect and collate the data.  We CANNOT wait 11 days for the data required to inform people and policy, that would be daft, so we use what is a technically ‘blunt’ measure.  The BMJ and others actually think this figure is normally a 20% underestimate, in any case every time this number is used, they tell you it is ‘deaths within 28 days’ not deaths of, or deaths with. 

 

The death data presented by the Office for National Statistics IS from death certificates. Recording deaths is a rigorous process in the UK and has both a part 1, covering ‘the chain of events directly leading to death’ and a part 2 – ‘other contributions’.  In most hospital deaths it will be overseen by the medical examiner.

 

 

Here is the data from a month ago, note the figure of 175,943, the number of deaths where Covid appears on the death certificate, and that another 2,500 have died since then, so we are approaching 180,000. According to the BMJ “in 90% of certificates where covid-19 is recorded, it does so in part 1 as the cause contributing directly to death” - so we are looking at over 160,000 direct Covid deaths

 

Covid killed 130,000 of the first five million cases in the UK, even though we hid from it, shut our economy down, missed families, binned our social lives, and put education on hold.  The subsequent 10 million cases have killed 30,000, a bit crude but by those numbers the vaccines have either saved 230,000 lives, or a lot of time spent locked down (or both most likely) 

 

The early predicted deaths in the UK of half a million would easily have been hit in the absence of vaccines and lockdowns, no question in my mind.  We have people reaching out for Covid death numbers going ‘only’ ‘only’ and ‘only’, but look at these 5 vaccine related deaths, shock horror.

 

Also, again we focus on deaths only, highlighting a handful of vaccine deaths, ignoring the number of times a young person’s heart or lungs or cerebrovascular system might be damaged by Covid, leading to a shorter less healthy life, or the risk they may give it to a sibling parent or grandparent.

[corsechris]

Thanks @jim_l, eloquently put as always.
 

I made passing reference to the potential consequences of having a bad covid illness, which certainly shouldn’t be understated as they’ll be life changing and potentially life limiting for those affected. I also accept that the excess deaths metric is going to be skewed downwards as well, simply because the measures we’ve been taking have dramatically reduced deaths from flu for one thing, so covid deaths have been ‘filling the gap’ somewhat.

 

Re-reading my last post, it does look like I was trying to down-play the numbers. That wasn’t my intent and I apologise for that. I suspect that like most who don’t work in the field, I’ve been guilty of not properly understanding the thinking behind the way the metric works and why it’s used. Whichever metric we opt for….it’s been bad so far.

 

It’s incredible how quickly the horrendous scenes of overflowing morgues, hospitals running out of oxygen, and how big a part the vaccines have played in getting us to where we are now, have apparently been forgotten.

 

 

 

 

[CosKev]

1 hour ago, corsechris said:

It’s incredible how quickly the horrendous scenes of overflowing morgues, hospitals running out of oxygen, and how big a part the vaccines have played in getting us to where we are now, have apparently been forgotten.

 

On the other hand you need to remember how the MSM media reported lots of this incorrectly.

Like the hospital in Blackpool they reported as 'Being full of covid patients '

When the truth was they had eight beds allocated to covid patients that were full🤷🏾‍♂️

Another MSM headline last week

'Covid patients in shropshire hospitals are spiralling out of control'

Covid patients in all hospitals across Shropshire went up from 22 to 32🙄

Out of a population pushing on 500k.

[corsechris]

15 minutes ago, CosKev said:

 

On the other hand you need to remember how the MSM media reported lots of this incorrectly.

Like the hospital in Blackpool they reported as 'Being full of covid patients '

When the truth was they had eight beds allocated to covid patients that were full🤷🏾‍♂️

Another MSM headline last week

'Covid patients in shropshire hospitals are spiralling out of control'

Covid patients in all hospitals across Shropshire went up from 22 to 32🙄

Out of a population pushing on 500k.

MSM is not the place to be getting ones information.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

10 hours ago, jim_l said:

or the risk they may give it to a sibling parent or grandparent.

 

But vaccines don't stop transmission?

 

10 hours ago, jim_l said:

Also, again we focus on deaths only, highlighting a handful of vaccine deaths, ignoring the number of times a young person’s heart or lungs or cerebrovascular system might be damaged by Covid,

 

On the flip side, same could be said that we haven't touched on how many young people have suffered moderate to severe side effects caused by vaccines either.

 

10 hours ago, jim_l said:

but look at these 5 vaccine related deaths, shock horror.

 

That's a bit unfair. You've written that as though I was pointing out 5 vaccine related deaths in respect to 150 000 deaths which is clearly not the case. I was talking about a very specific age group. Who also have a very low covid mortality/severe illness rate.

 

31 minutes ago, corsechris said:

MSM is not the place to be getting ones information.

 

Absolutely. But it's where the majority of people do. So they shouldn't be allowed to spout utter b*****x. 

[jim_l]

1 hour ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

But vaccines don't stop transmission?

Crumple zones on cars don’t STOP people dying or being seriously injured in car accidents.

Seatbelts don’t STOP people dying or being seriously injured in car accidents.

Airbags don’t STOP don’t stop people dying or being seriously injured in car accidents.

 

The reason we put them on the millions of cars we make every year is because they work often enough to make a significant difference. Mountains of evidence is building that vaccinations make a VERY significant difference to transmission.

 

1 hour ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

I was talking about a very specific age group. Who also have a very low covid mortality/severe illness rate.

 

1 hour ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

we haven't touched on how many young people have suffered moderate to severe side effects caused by vaccines either.

 

These are both good points, again would merit further research, although evidence for a very low Covid mortality in young people is strong, evidence suggests a ‘lower but not necessarily very low’ severe illness rate in young people:

 

CDC – A person of any age who has had COVID-19 can later develop a post-COVID condition. Although post-COVID conditions appear to be less common in children and adolescents, long-term effects after COVID-19 do occur in children and adolescents. Studies have reported long-term symptoms in children with both mild and severe COVID-19, including children who had multisystem inflammatory syndrome.

 

From above - CDC again, “12-17 years old 9x more likely to be hospitalised if not vaccinated” – are large numbers of vaccinated young people being hospitalised?

 

NCBI - A rapid review of international studies showed an increase in depressive and anxious symptoms in children as a result of Covid-19. This is likely attributable to a wide range of factors, including, social isolation, anxiety, etc.

 

The Office for National Statistics estimates that around 1.2 million people in the UK (including around 77,000 children aged 2-16 and around 134,000 people between 17 and 25 years old) are experiencing self-reported Long COVID.

 

There is a lot of this out there.

 

There is a degree to which we are all backing a horse here and it is early in the race. I am backing the horse that the vast majority of the medical and scientific communities are backing.  

[Steve (sdh2903)]

59 minutes ago, jim_l said:

Mountains of evidence is building that vaccinations make a VERY significant difference to transmission.

 

Yes indeed. But from all published data only for an incredibly short period of time? Hence why omicron was up at 200k infections a day when 90% of adults were double vaxxed and 50-60% were boostered. France is now seeing over 400k cases a day and they have a slightly higher % of fully vaxxed.

 

59 minutes ago, jim_l said:

self-reported Long COVID.

 

There's a danger there too. We all know there are people in society that will use self reporting to their own advantage.

 

59 minutes ago, jim_l said:

There is a degree to which we are all backing a horse here and it is early in the race. I am backing the horse that the vast majority of the medical and scientific communities are backing.  

 

Absolutely and we are all guilty of seeking out statistics to match and support our points. However using your analogy. That 1 horse ain't going to win every race in every circumstance. 

[Arm]

I find this level of conversation useful and educational.  Try reading similar posts on pistonheads which is now at the same level of abuse as Facebook (or twitter i assume as I dont do twitter)

 

For every good view in a reasoned debate there are alternatives  and opinions and many have merit. Even on here its not clear cut and this with todays knowledge vs what we knew at the start. No one soln to satisfy all.

 

Keep it up please chaps its a better read than most.

 

[MR.C]

131 people voted in the poll, and there is only me who has not had a jab?

[corsechris]

19 minutes ago, MR.C said:

131 people voted in the poll, and there is only me who has not had a jab?

 

The data would support that suggestion......