Looking for a car - How much power do I need?

[the stoat]

I think putting a figure on power is the wrong way to go.  I would just try several different cars as the power figure is just one dimension.  For example mine is 225 bhp and it does not feel that quick as it is so easy to drive, I think this is due to good engine mapping.  However on track I have only come across one car that can pull a gap down a straight,@Dommo. Driving another friend's car with less power is much more exciting than mine, there was a definite power band that made it feel fast and also far less predictable handling that kept you on your toes.

 

I am in the camp if doing it again I would make my car less capable, especially in the grip department, as having a car more capable than you is not that much fun.

[Onliest Smeg David]

 

[DanDud]

On 31/08/2019 at 23:14, BigSkyBrad said:

Ah, but does an S2000 have soul, or passion?

 

 

More so than a modern hot hatch, but no, not as much as a kit car.  Still puts a smile on my face after 8 years though so👍

 

My post was purely from a speed point of view, as that's what the OP specifically asked about; comparing to a 270bhp hot hatch.

 

But yeah, as a raw driving machine nothing can touch a Westie for the money.  You need 250+ bhp for a few hours worth of hard on though 🤣

 

Whatever you end up with OP,  you will love it.  And upgradeitus is always available should you get ill.

[MrPid]

On 01/09/2019 at 08:56, BigSkyBrad said:

 

Whipping it around a twisty, technical b-road that would leave other cars in the ditch is the icing on the cake!

 

Exactly this - any fool can point in a straight line and squeeze the throttle. There is no skill in that.

This is why I prefer riding V-Twin bikes as its the corners where they shine, and therefore you need to learn how to ride properly.

 

We parked in a pub car park this weekend and a film crew and a new Rolls Royce pulled in (they are local at Goodwood filming promo) and they all came straight to the Westie, even people in the pub garden came out to see the Westie over the brand new secret Roller! A Lamborghini then pulled in, again same story.

 

Power wise, its very important to have the car set up and geared to your power as well, a slower car will be quicker if it is set up and geared better than a car with more bhp (within reason).

[Kingster]

30 minutes ago, MrPid said:

This is why I prefer riding V-Twin bikes as its the corners where they shine, and therefore you need to learn how to ride properly.

That was my view too!

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

1 hour ago, MrPid said:

any fool can point in a straight line and squeeze the throttle. There is no skill in that.

 

There's an entire category of motoracing (that is huge in the US and a few other countries), that would heartily disagree with that rather patronising comment, along with many, many, many You Tube videos demonstrating that many people, (usually Mustang owners  Can't actually drive in a straight line!)

 

I appreciate that there's perhaps no enjoyment in that style of drive for you, and that's absolutely fine, but please lets not go back to the bad old days of knocking someone else's passion, just to promote our own.

 

The reality is, most people have their own take on what they want from the driving experience, we're all different, plenty want track weapons, plenty want B road Bombers and plenty want tourers, however i suspect the majority probably fall somewhere between several camps, and that's where the compromises come in. It's also what makes it such a difficult question to answer. As most have demonstrated, you can only really describe what works for you. 

 

(Owner of lighter weight Sigma powered car and "big beast" S2000 car)

[maurici]

17 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

 

There's an entire category of motoracing (that is huge in the US and a few other countries), that would heartily disagree with that rather patronising comment, along with many, many, many You Tube videos demonstrating that many people, (usually Mustang owners  Can't actually drive in a straight line!)

 

I appreciate that there's perhaps no enjoyment in that style of drive for you, and that's absolutely fine, but please lets not go back to the bad old days of knocking someone else's passion, just to promote our own.

 

Troll mode On

"

That motor racing category, prizes the vehicle build and preparation, and the reaction time to the christmas tree rather than "actual" driving skills.

 

This same people also race in banked left handers only...

"

Troll mode off.

 

To the OP:

 

What hot hatch are we talking about here? 270hp in 1200kg, isnt stupid power. It will feel fast, but if the car is half modern, and keeps some of its insulation and has a modern drivetrain, I can see why feels a bit "boring".

However, Any westfield with around 180hp with a sensible gearing will feel STUPIDLY fast, and won't be boring, whatsoever. Bear that in mind. A tin top (any tin top, even a racing tin top) can't be compared to an Open wheel/open cockpit car. They are simply different animals. Think of it as a bike with 4 wheels rather than a car. 

Also, in theese kind of kit cars, is all about the feelings and sensations, not on pure speed. And I promise you... 70mph in a B road with a westfield, and you will feel you are flying.

 

[MrPid]

45 minutes ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

I appreciate that there's perhaps no enjoyment in that style of drive for you, and that's absolutely fine, but please lets not go back to the bad old days of knocking someone else's passion, just to promote our own.

 

On the Contrary I have done my fair share of drag racing on bikes and cars - however its not a direct comparison to what the OP asked so is irrelevant and wasn't referenced.

 

My comments are within the context of the original question, relating to the ownership and performance of a Westfield on the road, not the track. My comments are also to be taken within the entire context of the post to help give a holistic, overall answer without the need to write an essay.

 

I say that there is little skill in straight line speed because it is that which pushed me more towards Westfield ownership. I grew tired of people quoting 0-60 times on bikes and cars at local meets, for their day to day cars/projects/sheds. I found it a very narrow minded, simple approach whilst claiming to be an enthusiast, yet most had little idea about suspension set up, tyres, drivetrain, etc etc.

 

The first car I built, with a 300 bhp turbo was completely undrivable in anything but perfect conditions.

 

My V8 had all the horsepower and torque, yet handling is very much compromised despite being fully set up and corner weighted.

 

My 2.0 Black top has almost half the horsepower and torque but being much, much lighter is a quicker car, and to me is more akin to what a Westfield ownership is supposed to be.

 

Again, my point being that horsepower isnt everything, yet it seems to be the top of everyone's list. The OP needs to decide what he wants from a car and then buy accordingly, not to buy a car and try and change it into something its not.

[BigSkyBrad]

I've always been of the mind that there's not much point in having hp you can't (real-world) use. I'm never going to be Rod Millen or Bruce Anstey (sorry, NZ references) so my cars and bikes have been powered more or less relevant to my ability. Of all 28 bikes I've had from 250cc 18,000rpm screamers to 900cc sport tourers, the bike that I could really chuck about and be B-road quick on (quick, not fast, there's a difference) was a 50hp gen-1 KLE500, partly because I felt confident it was never going to step out on me. I had a mate with a 1975 CB500/4 on chinese tyres who could run rings around modern sportbikes (mind you he had balls from a cannon!) Yeah, I'd love an extra 30hp in my Westfield as overtaking tends to be a military operation as she is, but any upgrades after that I'd spend my money on suspension, tyres and brakes - because £ for £ that'll get you quicker than hp.

From what I've gathered, the sweet spot for fast-road Westfields is 160-180hp in a well sorted chassis - yes/no?

The speed limit is 60mph, the trick to covering ground quick is to be able to do 60 everywhere! (haha, I talk a good game, truth is I simply can't think/drive as fast as I used to).

[Rab (bombero) Reid]

I've read the replies with a lot of interest and it's pleasing (and not wholly unsurprising) to see that a lot of owners aren't going down the approach of "big bhp means big gains/speed". One mistake a lot of first time buyers can make (and I include myself in this), is thinking that you need big bhp in a Westy to have fun. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Owning a Westy isn't about how fast you can go but how quickly you get going. These are different things entirely! It's about the fast A/B roads and not about mile munching autobahn speeds .. let's be honest, the Westy wasn't designed in a wind tunnel!

I bought mine with a 2.0ltr silvertop on twin 40s with 150bhp and immediately thought that I needed to upgrade but then wise owners advised me to get to know the car as it is and learn to drive all over again. They weren't wrong. After a while though, I wanted a bit more reliability, throttle response and torque and so upgraded to bike throttle bodies and a bit of mild tuning. With 200bhp and improved mid range torque is where I'm happy. This is coupled with improved braking and tweaked suspension and the car now gives me bags of fun in the corners and acceleration .. it's the way to go!

[Mighty Mart]

Interesting replies from all, and as weird as it would seem, you can have more fun going slower sometimes....

Not for everyone admittedly, but another thread on tyres revealed that much more fun COULD be had on skinnier tyres at lower speeds than sticky tyres?

Coupled to the fact that whatever westfield you are in, being sat less than a foot above the road surface exponentially increases the feeling of speed.

To give you an idea, I've got an old narrow with 'only' a x-flow engine....albeit a well tuned one at 140 bhp - so I'm very much at the bottom end of ownership valuewise, but not too far behind, if any, performance wise, on the road, in most circumstances.

When I first got my westfield, I took out a mate who at the time was driving a 911, and had riden numerous sportsbikes like he'd stolen them..RI, Ducati etc etc, and he said it was the most raw and exciting experience he'd ever had, and the quickest thing he had ever been in....

Of course it wasn't...nowhere near it, but that is the impression that a westfield gives you, and at the end of the day, thats all that counts?

Mart.

[AdamR]

Agreed. I have a mate who raced in 1000cc Superstock, took him out in my MX-5 (with the windscreen cut off, ha) at Oulton Park and he shat himself. Much shorter braking distances, higher apex speeds, car moving around all over the place - it's just a different thing altogether.

 

I'm still a huge fan of actual road tyres, the whole experience is much more interesting providing the car is set up properly.

[the stoat]

1 hour ago, AdamR said:

I'm still a huge fan of actual road tyres, the whole experience is much more interesting providing the car is set up properly.

 

I do think too much grip, and power, make you lazy.  I took our MX5 out at a track day to see what it was like, the tyres on it are not great, it was an absolute hoot.  It actually made me giggle and let me explore handling limits with a much bigger safety / talent deficit margin than the Westfield allows.  Next up is to try a Citroen C1 on track.

[AdamR]

Good plan 😁 There must be a reason why the C1 race series has grown at such an astronomical pace... 99 cars on the grid at the Silverstone 24hr race this season, having only been running a couple of years!

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Interestingly the Westfield XI that I have got which has approx 90 BHP and a 4 speed box is a beautiful handling car that really rewards pushing on as lower speeds and isn't going to lose your licence. And that's from someone who normally drives a race-car with 1140 BHP/ton 🤣🤣