2018 Regs and Explainations

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

The SSOT has been very busy over the last couple of months; and I will publish the minutes of the Meetings in due course... but the important documents for the drivers are the draft regulations for 2018;

****These have not been submitted to the MSA as they are just being proof read and I need to speak to MR XXXXXX to ask if he would be willing to be a club steward.****

Ideally we do not want or like change, and we have tried to limit them each year;  but sometimes external forces are put on us from external bodies like the MSA or because a regulations was not fit for purpose. We agreed as a group that the SSOT would publish why a change was needed, and also try to give reasoning on the adjustment.

The 2 pages of summary does not give value to the amount the time the team have met talked, debated and agreed on a change.  So thank you to the SSOT for their time.

WSCC 2018 MSA Speed Series Regs 1.1 without Track Changes.pdf (draft)

WSCC 2018 MSA Speed Series Regs Final.pdf

 

Explanation of Changes to 2018 Speed Series Regulations.pdf

I will speak to @Chris King - Webmaster and Joint North East AO to get the online shop up with the 2018 link.

 

Many thanks

John "Panda" Williams

Ps We will leave the post up for comments and questions and I do have the popcorn ready

 

Edited May 29, 2018 by John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary
updated with final regs

[Simon Waterfall Syman84]

Wow 24 hours with no comments so I will go first. 

We haven't seen any TT's yet but there are some quick times in C+D so to give A+B 2% for tyres means novices are unlikely to get anywhere near the TT's.

Last season 2017 as Terry said there had been 20% increase in entrants and i hope the speed series grows even more, Imo as a novice it's put a downer on what likely personal achievements against TT's I will get.

I know all the SSOT work really hard and it can't have been easy to implement a large change like this so thanks for all the effort you guys put in.

 

[Terry Everall]

Please remember that novices will still be able to look at their personal best times and novice class  position, sprint challenge ( for novice only) and novice championship places will not be affected at all

 

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

22 minutes ago, terry everall said:

Please remember that novices will still be able to look at their personal best times and novice class  position, sprint challenge ( for novice only) and novice championship places will not be affected at all

 

and also how we doing it this year it will go back to 2016 way of displaying the results so  you can see your time verses the whole of the field.

so If you take myself and @Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AOwe can have an easy to calculate rivervally even though I'm expert he is novice (I wasn't chosen to this reason); and actually see the novice championship as a important part of the competition.

Cheers

 

John Panda

 

[Onliest Smeg David]

34 minutes ago, John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary said:

...so If you take myself and @Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO

... currently the only two 'true' roadgoing Westfield's sprinting

We need more!

[stephenh]

2 hours ago, syman84 said:

Wow 24 hours with no comments so I will go first. 

We haven't seen any TT's yet but there are some quick times in C+D so to give A+B 2% for tyres means novices are unlikely to get anywhere near the TT's.

Last season 2017 as Terry said there had been 20% increase in entrants and i hope the speed series grows even more, Imo as a novice it's put a downer on what likely personal achievements against TT's I will get.

I know all the SSOT work really hard and it can't have been easy to implement a large change like this so thanks for all the effort you guys put in.

 

I don't think it would be realistic for a novice to expect to get close to the target times, surely? If they could, then the targets are too easy for the better/quicker experts, so unfair to those in other classes.

Target times are first and foremost a means of sorting out the overall championship, not individual class championships.

[AdamR]

1 hour ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

'true' roadgoing Westfield's

We need more!

I agree, and I don't think the way the series is set up is encouraging this at the moment, which is a shame. 

I have made my thoughts known before about this. Here's my last suggestion: how about making novice target times more realistic and not having them count towards the full / main championship? That protects the 'old guard' so they can take away the pots at the end of year, yet still gives newbies the chance of scoring decent points.

You can defend the current system all you want with comments about being close to other competitors on the day, but people want to feel like they at least have a decent chance of getting near to the times that are 'expected' for their spec of car (that is what a target time is, right?). If they are getting high 80s / low 90s on the points then they don't feel good about the time, effort and money they have expended. The feel good is what keeps people coming back.

Haven't seen TTs yet but would strongly encourage you to look at Class A and B target times for the coming season, using actual data where it is available. A lot of newbies would end up in these classes and some of the calculated ones are stupendous - both novice and expert. 2% slower than Class C and D is a joke. Again I know this is to protect the top boys, and you don't want the lower classes winning overall, but IMO it should be a level playing field throughout.

Apologies for the 'harsh' message but I have a feeling I was too subtle with my comments / thoughts last year. I'm not hiding behind a screen here either, I feel strongly about this and would happily put these words forward in real life too.

[Matthew Haynes]

1 hour ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

... currently the only two 'true' roadgoing Westfield's sprinting

We need more!

@Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO Which bit of my Westfield is not "true" roadgoing?

[maurici]

24 minutes ago, AdamR said:

I agree, and I don't think the way the series is set up is encouraging this at the moment, which is a shame. 

I have made my thoughts known before about this. Here's my last suggestion: how about making novice target times more realistic and not having them count towards the full / main championship? That protects the 'old guard' so they can take away the pots at the end of year, yet still gives newbies the chance of scoring decent points.

You can defend the current system all you want with comments about being close to other competitors on the day, but people want to feel like they at least have a decent chance of getting near to the times that are 'expected' for their spec of car (that is what a target time is, right?). If they are getting high 80s / low 90s on the points then they don't feel good about the time, effort and money they have expended. The feel good is what keeps people coming back.

Haven't seen TTs yet but would strongly encourage you to look at Class A and B target times for the coming season, using actual data where it is available. A lot of newbies would end up in these classes and some of the calculated ones are stupendous - both novice and expert. 2% slower than Class C and D is a joke. Again I know this is to protect the top boys, and you don't want the lower classes winning overall, but IMO it should be a level playing field throughout.

Apologies for the 'harsh' message but I have a feeling I was too subtle with my comments / thoughts last year. I'm not hiding behind a screen here either, I feel strongly about this and would happily put these words forward in real life too.

And that is why I was moving from B to D... No way you can do the proposed times (or anywhere near) with the current B2 tyres with a roadgoing Car.

I suscribe 100% the words of Adam.

And I was aiming to the sprint challenge this year, just for the fun to finally win something from Adam... and current changes put completely down any motivation I could have to go out for a last season... now looks unlikely I´ll commit much to be honest, and despite I´m technically allowed as I only have 15 events in my shoulders, No way im steping down to novices...

[Onliest Smeg David]

49 minutes ago, Matthew Haynes said:

@Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO Which bit of my Westfield is not "true" roadgoing?

TBH I don't know yours, hence the  question emoji indicating there may be more.

There's been some Speed Series banter about what is the true/real roadgoing spirit used regularly on road and what just meets the technical requirements to enter class.

The majority of members Westfields used regularly, e.g. I did 4000 miles last MOT, have windscreen / wipers / heaters / some form of weather protection.

@AdamR 's, same engine, is 100kg lighter making mine the 'Lardy One' sometimes refured to in WW and forum. This is the handicap many potential newby sprinters see, and along with what appear to be unobtainable TT's deters many from 'having a go'. This is from real world conversations I've had with members at WSCC meets / Stoneleigh etc. when trying to persuade them to enter Blyton to experience what sprinting is like.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

10 minutes ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

TBH I don't know yours, hence the  question emoji indicating there may be more.

There's been some Speed Series banter about what is the true/real roadgoing spirit used regularly on road and what just meets the technical requirements to enter class.

The majority of members Westfields used regularly, e.g. I did 4000 miles last MOT, have windscreen / wipers / heaters / some form of weather protection.

@AdamR 's, same engine, is 100kg lighter making mine the 'Lardy One' sometimes refured to in WW and forum. This is the handicap many potential newby sprinters see, and along with what appear to be unobtainable TT's deters many from 'having a go'. This is from real world conversations I've had with members at WSCC meets / Stoneleigh etc. when trying to persuade them to enter Blyton to experience what sprinting is like.

Absolutely agree with this Dave.

When I was competing in my Westfield (before the MSA mucked about with the ROPS rules) it was alway's run in a true road going condition, with screen, carpets and comfy seats.  At that time I was doing around 3000 road miles a year and would swap on a different set of wheels and a fully stickered bonnet for times it was taken on track. 

Ok, so I'm not the fastest driver in the field but to get anywhere close to the target times or the others in my class I always felt that I would have to modify my car to such an extent that it would no longer be useable as a road car in the same way. 

 

[maurici]

Even with a car make to "specification" for the B2 MSA class, that could be mine, and farily decent drivers on it(speaking about Adam, not myself) , is extremly difficult to achieve this target times.

To make it even more difficult, in the places where me or Addam settled the records last year, it was deciede to ignore them and drop the times about 2 secons...

Definitely, target times for lower classes have to be revised and applyed in a different way. However, I don´t have the reciept for this. And I understand is Extremely difficult due the low number of entrants.

[B.RAD]

3 hours ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

... currently the only two 'true' roadgoing Westfield's sprinting

We need more!

My car is roadgoing and I enjoy driving it to our meets and on my local roads. It meets the class regs perfectly.  I think it comes down to this - if you want to come out and play, have fun, meet great people and see how you/your car compares, this class structure works perfectly. If you want to win, plan to develop both car and driver which will take time and money to be a top performer in any class. But don't ask for the regs to be changed to meet your car - that puts way too much complication on the SSOT, the MSA and the sport. There has to come a point at which you make a decision, do I want to win, or do I want to just go out and play? But it's not fair to demand the regs get changed to be more suitable to "your" car.

[Paul Aspden]

Lots of talk around target times (as always) yet they aren't published yet. Maybe, just maybe they will be revised to reflect the apparently common consensus that they have been a little unachievable in some classes.

On another note, item 1.6.2 implies that there will no longer be ties for maximum scores in each class on each event. I read this as the maximum score will, on occasions where there are soft targets or outstanding drives, exceed 101 points, with the potential for the every class to have maximum scores greater than 101 in the event that two or more class competitors beat the target. Am I correct? If so, Mr Cleaver will need to do all his runs to potentially maximise his scores!

 

[Paul Morcom]

One set of target times to fit all (novices and experts); target times may be the wrong name for them but we all know how they are used. In the main TTs are only there for the scoring system to work, they also do recognise the class records wherever possible. It does not matter what they are as long as they provide a levelish playing field across the classes and venues (there is no perfect scoring system, if there was then all championships would use the one perfect scoring system). We have a large amount of data to work for in all classes except A and B. SSOT have reviewed the little data we have on these two classes but as such it is not enough (with a small cross-section of drivers and many weather and types of course etc) to be able to sensibly use this data for establishing targets.

The TTs scoring systems works perfectly well for Class and Overall scoring alike, it makes no difference. Competitors need to take the emotion away from wanting a target that is achievable and also a novice target that would enable a novice to win the overall championship (that is hardly a level playing field). IMHO a novice is really unlikely to be skilled and experienced enough to win the overall championship unless they had extensive experience in some other form of motorsport and then that would bring into question their novice status. 

Using a 2% adjustment on C & D targets is NOT done to "protect the old guard" it has been set on the basis of the little amount of data we have. @AdamR@maurici  and @Mark (smokey mow)if you have extensive data on list 1A/B tyres and synchro gearboxes that you can share with SSOT then please do pass onto Terry Everall.

One set of targets makes absolutely no difference to the position in class and overall, whether a novice or expert, it simplifies the scoring and the results website. The championship is run by volunteers and keeping things as simple as possible is the right thing to do. There is no other championship in the UK that scores experts and novices differently or tries to level the competition across classes.

Many elements of our championship are included to make it attractive to competitors new to the sport compared to other championships. We have a reduced number of qualifying events to count and the Sprint Challenge exclusively for novices. There are also overall and class novice awards.

Then there is the unparalleled support given to novices in our championship by the more experienced competitors.