Duratec 2.0l

[Blatman]

I agree. That's the way to drive. Gearchanges are timed and not rushed, turn the wheel once etc etc. Who says you have to smash through the gears and fight with the steering wheel to drive quickly? I could watch that all day

[JeffC]

back on topic again for Jim's sake. (i'm no spelling god)

The 1800 zetec is not a good place to start.......I dispute that.

My first 1800 with 2l cams and s***e 45's made 146bhp (once)

My second go with better 45's and a mappable alpha ECU made 155bhp

My 3rd go good 45's, 285 cams, rod bolts and some home dremel work made 172bhp

I've sold the 2l cams and older 45's along the way and other than fluids and RR sessions would say that this has been quite cheep tuning. I'm no gift to driving, but the car is plenty fast enought for me

 

My sentiments entirely Mark.

My 1800 Zetec was 180bhp on Jenvey 40mm TB's and MBE Management and was very, very sweet - much nicer engine than a 2ltr.

It was capable of embarassing 95% of other cars on trackdays in the right hands. It was also a fully specced road car with windscreen/heater/carpets MT75 Gearbox and no LSD.

It doesn't loose to much to the Lotus which has 120bhp advantage or the BMW with 160 bhp advantage:

from Vimeo.

(I'm not the driver!)

Remember Jim - Trackdays are NOT Racing - Overtaking is by consent only!

You could have 350bhp - if the car in front doesn't want to let you past - you won't get past.  

agreed well driven  was like watching Andrew in action that  

ps. was the lotus not supercharged in that vid    

[Andrew]

QUOTE

agreed well driven  was like watching Andrew in action that    

All that's missing is the flickering oil pressure light.      

[Jim1234]

Thanks for the constructive comments in the recent posts.  Spellings not my strong point so I won’t get involved in that other than to agree that Word helps and an English dictionary app with Firefox tends to hide some of the problem.  I don't know what solves the there/their or whether/weather type issues?   However, back on topic.

I agree track days are track days not racing; actually being new to the game perhaps the opposite is true and that I’m being too considerate and it is slowing me down by spending too much time looking in the mirror and thinking about where I’m going to let the next car pass me; I feel that I don't want to hold people up, so like the guy in the video I'm good at sticking my finger in the air to invite the pass.   I just don't want to be doing it as often as I have been and I do get a little frustrated on those limited occasions when I think others should do the same for me.  I will take on board the need for more patience, but not encouraging the pass so much.  A bit more     and a bit more   does that sounds about right?

The video has also raised a number of questions in my mind re the performance and set up of my current car and I will post these later when I have thought them through – hope I got that right, words with th and ug can be tricky as some of us know?  

It must be great to be able to play with a turbo Exige like that, just slow down let him pass and then sit there looking like you are out on a Sunday afternoon drive.  On seeing the Video I assume that the Westfield was a well set up Duratec with ported head and up -rated cams putting out 230bhp (or a similar spec engine) – with all the other goodies needed – better brakes, wide track, good shocks, ARB’s and a LSD – basically that’s what I think I want – except for the crap MT75 gear ratios if that’s what it was – In fact I was just about to say there’s £13k waiting for the first person to pm me if they have got a car with that spec, as that’s around what the last 2  up-rated cars have sold for.

But looking again at the post and the figures saying the Westfield was 120bhp less than the supercharged Exige (240 Cup???) that’s only 124bhp which can’t be right.  I can hardly keep up with an Elise (in a straight line) never mind an Exige or a BMW (M series??), and I have a 160bhp engine!  Can someone please tell me the bhp of that Westfield is closer to 230 than 124, as I’m beginning to feel quite depressed ---  

Nor, do I understand how a BMW (M series??) can catch that supercharged Exige, unless that video is staged or the Exige driver is not trying or just a hopeless driver?

[JeffC]

It gets very boring driving a car that is extremely fast because all you do is get held up!

aint that the truth    Ive had a 250bhp bike engined westy and a 300bhp Duratec race caterham and hand on heart had the most fun in any car ive owned was in a 170bhp westy duratec chasing Andrew/Pete and Oggy in his westy s2000  round Oulton/Croft Anglesey and Cadwell Park and all of us outdriving much faster machinery that we were on track with .    

When I was on track in my Caterham pretty much every car on the circuit became a mobile chicane and the problem with trackdays is the point and squirt straightline drivers its sooooooo frustrating  , I did a full day at Cadwell Park in my duratec and never got one clear lap all day      

[Pilot Pete]

I did a full day at Cadwell Park in my duratec and never got one clear lap all day      

And nearly crashed into a slow moving chicane!    

Definitly dont need more than 200bhp in a westy in my opinion to have fun on a trackday. Hell we used to have a hoot with 120bhp!

[Jim1234]

Thanks for the reply; you guys do have a way of making you point about enjoying the car for what it is, and not looking just to be the fastest man on the day.  I said I was going to post re the car in the video and compare what I see there with how my car behaves, and what I have to do to reduce those differences.  But I’m compelled to ask another question first.

The obvious question I have to ask is, what are you driving now, and if you have changed or upgraded why is that, and are you saying you actually regret having done so?

I guess Jeff is the one to ask first after talking about his 170bhp car that he enjoyed so much, yet now has 250 and 300bhp machines in the garage?  So how did you get seduced by the dark-side and fall into the trap of wanting so much power, as you all say it can spoil the fun and I think you all say that a car in the 160 -180bhp range is the one to have or up to a max of 200bhp in the last post?  Perhaps I should offer to solve the problem you seem to have got yourself into and reluctantly offer up my sweet-spot 160bhp Zetec, say for that 300bhp Duratec that is always stuck in traffic jams.

Jeff, I’m sure you know I’m going over the top to make a point, as I’m just trying to draw you out on why this happens.  Does every one want to ride up the bhp curve and then actually think that this was not the way to go and finds that the fun goes out of ownership?  Is that actually the way the Westfield experience is going to end for those who tread that path?  I suppose there’s no going back to the 170bhp car that you enjoyed so much?

Nikpro, I think I have to ask you the same question, as it was your car in the video keeping up Westfield end so well, against what looked like tough competition.  Are you still driving that sweet 180bhp Zetec or have you also moved onward and upwards, if so what are you driving now and was that the way to go.

Anyone else who would like to share their thoughts on this please feel free, as I think the natural trend is for all Newbie’s think that bhp is king and you guys who have been down that path should keep us on the straight and narrow; especially if you have only learned the hard way.  Today’s Sunday, so it’s a good time to confess or to warn others if you have also been seduced by the darkforce (bhp), and now regret the decision.

I’m particularly interested in where people think the sweet-spot is for a good road car that would have a windscreen, heater reasonable seats etc and a likely weight of say 630kg with fuel (ex driver) that can really be enjoyed on the track and hold its own against the other traffic.   Assuming say 160/180/200/230bhp – are typical figures  representing what is available from the common engines that are used at various level of tuning

160bhp – 1.8l Zetec with TB’s or 1.6l VX with TB’s and cams:

180bhp – 1.8l Zetec with TB’s, head work and cams or 2.0l Zetec/ 2.0lVX with TB’s;

200bhp - 2.0l Duratec with TB’s or 2.0l Zetec/2.0l VX with TB’s and cams;

230bhp - 2.0l Duratec with TB’s and cams or 2.0l Zetec/VX in a high state of tune..

It looks to me as if at least a couple of experienced owners are saying they would opt for 160/170/180bhp for the use I intend on one has said a max 200bhp.  Assume this car will have a close ratio type 9 helical cut syncro gearbox or similar that is suitable for road use.  What else would you see as a must have or want at your sweet-spot engine size to complete the package - for say brakes, suspension wide or narrow, shocs, LSD, ABR’s, wheels and tyres.

No inbuilt satnav or Boise sound system please or any other non Westy type extras - I know someone will not be able to resist temptation, but try to be good - remember its Sunday.  

[nikpro]

Nikpro, I think I have to ask you the same question, as it was your car in the video keeping up Westfield end so well, against what looked like tough competition.  Are you still driving that sweet 180bhp Zetec or have you also moved onward and upwards, if so what are you driving now and was that the way to go.

I changed to a 2ltr Zetec; I haven't the money or inclination to go back to the 1800 Zetec.

If I was to build another Westfield I would go with the 1600 Sigma Engine tuned to 180bhp - I think this engine is best suited to the car for Revs/Weight.

The car I get most enjoyment from is the 1.6 Mk1 MX5 I rebuilt last year. (120 bhp)

The Westfield did less than 1,000 miles this year the Mazda did 5,000 over Summer.

[Johnson]

Not tracked my current car yet properly only done a couple of LoT days so cannot give a definitive answer to the power question but I have ample for my limited driving skills.

I am surprised no one has mentioned BEC's yet    

If it was me I would be looking at probably upgrading your current car with widetrack,better shocks, and at the very minimum a RAC roll bar.

I have the HiSpec/WF calipers on mine and have to say I am very impressed with them,cheap upgrade too and saves some weight.

The area I would be to get the car professionally setup (geo and corner weighting) assuming you dont have the capability to do it yourself.

Finally it would some professional driver training search for Sean Edwards on Pistonheads for peoples views (a work colleague has used him and raved about it)

I dont think what I have suggested there would spoil your enjoyment of the car in its primary role and the driver training would benefit you in whatever you drive.

As Frazer's video proves you don't need masses of power to have fun or embarrass much more exotic machinery.

[JeffC]

QUOTE

Jeff, I’m sure you know I’m going over the top to make a point, as I’m just trying to draw you out on why this happens.  Does every one want to ride up the bhp curve and then actually think that this was not the way to go and finds that the fun goes out of ownership?  Is that actually the way the Westfield experience is going to end for those who tread that path?  I suppose there’s no going back to the 170bhp car that you enjoyed so much?

I went up to 300bhp to be competeitve in the race series I was in as the front running cars were all 300bhp .

QUOTE

And nearly crashed into a slow moving chicane!

video of near miss Pete mentioned , was my first drive in this car     

was b****y close that i remember my A*** nipping the seat as I tried to make the car narrower than it was    unless you are racing 200bhp is more than enough,

a little story about bhp...I remember when I first bought a megabusa after a few months I wanted more power but after advice from nick algar I  resisted and over the next year or so with bum in seat time I managed to shave a good 2 seconds off my lap times at various circuits so I defo didnt need extra power  

I eventually replaced the standard busa with a 1550cc busa having an extra 70bhp. what suprised me more than anything was I was only lapping 1 second faster with the extra power,after getting some more good advice from Harv on set up I changed spring rates and improved brakes and got some tuition and this resulted in going another 1second quicker..  

moral of this story from me is Power isnt everything  

current car is 260bhp  csr caterham which I reckon is enough and on track too much but is  a very nice road car and knowing what I know now I would have bought a csr 200      

[Matt Seabrook]

Big power is not always the answer to going faster. I know of Westfields that have had 40BHP increses and gone no faster. A mate had 210ish bhp and gain 40 bhp to go to 250bhp and yes the car is faster in a straight line on track its more difficult to drive fast. At the start of this seasons racing I drove a car with exactly 1/2 the power of my sprint car. It was slower on the sprint than my own car but given a bit more time in the car I feel I could have got close to my cars times within a couple of seconds at the worst. It shocked me how easy the car was to drive on the limit and how you could just jump on the gas. I would say a good all round car would have about 200 ish bhp. So next question is why have I gone for so much more than that in my sprint car? Well I have always liked to develop the car to the enth degree. I get as much out of developing the car as I do driving it and power is a drug thats not always good for you.

[Jim1234]

Been spending so time watching videos of smooth driving Andrew and Jeff squeezing his    that my follow up in which I wanted to ask some specifics re track driving and car set up has been delayed ; but I am on the case and will be back soon.  

Just to let you know that I am moving up the learning curve; I fully concede that high differential closing speeds caused by 300bhp racers mixing with what looked like a family saloons, does not  look to me to be the sweet spot for track day driving; as while Jeff did it once  - I squeezed my    every time he passed a car that looked as if it was standing still.

I make a pledge that you will never, ever, hear.......  Oh.....no I mean see...... a number of more than 200 appear in any post that I make, unless it is to make your point that any thing above that is totally unnecessary.  But figures between 160 and 200 sound like discussion in progress to me.

And just to show I'm paying attention; shame on you with 300bhp available for even thinking about that cunning ploy with those headlights.  Does that brake your class rules ?

      Important Note to Self;  Remember to turn around headlights for improved aerodynamics when at track days.

     Even More Important Note to Self; remember to turn them back again before any quick getaways down the motorway.

[JeffC]

in the video i put up, at 5.35 the blue westy I come up behind is the Andrew driving Petes 200bhp zetec, you can see I can easily keep up on 1/4 throttle changing up at half revs, 300bhp is definatley  too much    

thinking about my above statment I must be going mad as Ive also recently sold a 30bhp Rotax kart which was balistic to race a slug slow kart with 2 lawn mower engines on              

[Matt Seabrook]

This is what 227bhp in a Westfield can do to a 300bhp Subaru and yes he was going for it.

[Jim1234]

Those videos are very addictive - one link just leads to another - then it’s Oh what does that scantily clad young female know about the finer point of advising the Westfield driver on "technique"      did pick up a few tips though, on how to improve ones performance.

I've also been sidetracked, talking to brake and pad manufactures, and taking photos of Disco callipers and pads for the benefit of a future generation of Westfield owners  -  see the Disco thread -now its my turn and be warned I have had lots of time to think - having spent hours        holding a phone waiting to speak to someone in the "Technical department"  of various companies.

I said I would come back re the video and try to explain why I think the car in the Video is different form mine and what I need to do to bridge the gap and get more enjoyment from my car on track days.  Unfortunately, I have not been to the tracks on which Andrew and Jeff display their skills.  Some of you also mention the driver so I’ll cover that as well.  

Looking at the video, Andrews driving was very smooth and looked quick and going back over a few of the earlier posts the words "in the right hands" and "competent driver" and the importance of driver training are dually noted.  I think from some posts that I might have created the impression that I have only done one track day and I was basing my thinking on that, sorry if that was the case, it was unintentional.  I have now done half a dozen – mainly half days or evenings, at different tracks, I have improved, but the same feelings I had at the start are still there.  I know I have lots of room for further improvement and I have had at least one lesson on each of the track days I've done.

I even had two lessons on a Goodwood track day with two different instructors, but talk about what not to do!  This was at the Festival of Speed weekend; when I went on line to buy a ticket.   Goodwood  had put up at the last minute, a half day track day and entry to the event  at a very good price – with transport laid on to and from the F of S via the VIP entrance.  Guess what, only 7 people spotted it and signed up.  It was a 10 car day so you could do as much driving as you wanted too.  I’m really only mentioning this because it was such great value for money – so have a look next year.

Back to business, I had a session to learn track layout first then went out with the first instructor.  He let me do a few laps and then said not bad, but do it like this, giving me new lines, turn in and apex points and at the end he said I was spot on.  Did a session on my own to practice, my new found skills and it seamed much faster – but then car was 90kg lighter and that helps.  I then tried the other guy – the chief instructor - it was free instruction as well - just in case you wondering, and they were asking to go out with people as there was only the seven car there.  He said that my driving lines were hopeless – so I did it his way, which was actually very similar to what I had done by myself before the first lesson.   I was so             I got them together afterwards to say what had happened.  Not being the violent type - confused of Weybridge - left them to it before it came to blows.

So has any one got a video or can they point me to a video of how they think Goodwood should be done in a 160/180/200bhp Westfield’s so that I can put it in context with what I experienced.?  But no mad 200 plus bhp, cars as my sore     will not stand watching Jeff again.      

Other than Goodwood, the instructors have been reasonably complimentary  (I hope that’s not just because I’m a paying) , so I don't think I'm a lost cause or just so bad at driving that I'm blaming the car.  But is there a right and a wrong way or is it just driving styles that that caused the confusion at Goodwood.

One other example of the same thing before I get to the videos.  Always looking for a bargain i saw that MSV had advertised - at very short notice  - spaces on the Brands Hatch GP circuit as a cheap half day, with 4 half hour sessions, at less than half price of the whole day.  It was just to good to miss and what a great track with only the one low speed corner Druid's to slow me down     (actually not to happy about all the cars passing me down Pilgrims drop and up Hawthorn Hill or along the Brabham Straight.  The car car just  seems to hit brick wall and they all fly by, that’s what makes me keep thinking about more bhp to help me down the long straight.

I had my lesson got a not bad comment but do it like this, and that was very helpful and I know I improved.  Later, I Googled BH and got up a video of Jacky Stewart in this prime driving around that circuit and talking about how each corner should be done lines to tack, turn in, apexes the lot.  Guess what, very different advice compared with that from my instructor – why is that - I know he was in a old F1 car - and I'm in a Westfield but why is the approach different ?    

Finally, the video of Andrew!  A couple of things struck me about the video and I have described them below, as I’m wondering if that will help someone pin down why I’m feeling the need to buy another higher power better spec car, rather than looking solely to improve my driving or perhaps trying to fix my car if that’s what’s needed.

So, agreed, that’s an MT75 gearbox, which for track use, has in my view too big a gap between 2nd and 3ed, and that causes me problems and I think, slows me down.  So straight away it hit me that this is strictly a two gear track - 3ed and 4th - and that helps a lot, as even my car does feel a lot more competitive in that setting.  In medium and higher speed twisty bit using 3ed and 4th I actually feel quite competitive and pull away from cars going round the corners and so can keep track place on the straight bits.   In fact, I feel the need for a trip to Oulton moving up the to-do list, it’s just the 194 miles to get there that need some planning, but that track would mask the problems I have with my car..

It’s a pity there were no high speed straights bits to low speed corners to observe - as that is one of the places where my car feels very weak due to the wide gap between 2nd and 3ed, and as I now suspect performance issues with the Land Rover Discovery II rear callipers that Westfield supplied as a replacement for the original M16’s on the front of my car,  see here .  I’m talking to Westfield to try to resolve my concerns.

Also, now I think about it............there was only one second gear corner on Jeff’s video of Cadwell Park.............do I detect a pattern emerging here ............should the aspiring track day driver, who owns a 160bhp Westfield with a MT75 gearbox, only visit tracks needing two gear tracks and is that what those who advocate the 160 to 180bhp sweet spot do.  

Note to Self:  Must check before booking to see if 2nd gear is needed – as that could be a better option than spending money, and think how much better I’ll feel!!!

So, what about the Bedford GP track, that has a much wider selection of corners including three low speed 2nd gear corners – and it is after those, that I get the traffic behind me for, example atter the end of the long back straight and after the (160? degree left hander) that follows.

Has anyone got a video of a Westfield at Bedford GP, so I can see how that looks when there is 3 slow speed 2nd gear corners to be mastered, not forgetting that long back straight where I feel like I’m the mobile chicane.  Usual rules apply it must be a Westfield 160/180/200……….no 200 plus etc. etc – see still resisting temptation – but a bit more power than 160bhp would be nice down those long back straights.

That's enough, I’ll come back later re ride and suspension issues and try to explain how I saw the car Andrew was diiving seemed to handle, compared with mine, which is a bit .