" Lets Help Residuals Thread "

[Glen H]

Now as for the "brand" Westfield are in it to sell cars in kit or complete, they did us no favors when they brought out the SDV (no offence to anyone who has one) but at the shows you see the advert build one for £7999 IIRC complete. So show goers now have a price of £8k in mind for a new car. The same will happen with the new SDV MX5 version it will be priced competitivly. Now I understand why they need to do this to compete with the myriad locost operators but again it lowers the percieved value unless you see the reasons. If you look at the two cars SDV against say a sports 2000 unless you know the brand will you see two similar cars with huge price differentials or the truth that they are chalk and cheese one budget driven one the pinnicle of the design.

I think Jeff was correct with this comment, the SDV is in a way a good thing as it has brought new people / budgets to the club and therefore will do its own thing to assist in Marketing the name, so please don't think I am against the SDV concept.

However as Jeff states, if a 'Newbie' is looking for his/her first purchase then the majorityy of them will not realise and appreciate the different in specifications - too a newbie they will look excacly the same.

When I sold my first Westy in 2003 (2.0 Zetec SEIW) I had it for 2 years and only lost a camparitively low percentage of its build (approx 11%) which I think is about right.

I knew when I was building my current car that I would stand to loose some money if I sold it, as it was built with plenty of upgrades and to quite a high spec, but then thats the same with any vehicle road or race.

I agree that Westfields are equal to C*****am, you could even say 'Westfield are the New Lotus 7' due to the initiation of developments (is the new CSR not in response to the Sport 2000s?!!) and are of the equal build quality (across ther board) and therefore should be of equal value.  The introduction of the SDV has if anything thrown this out of the window with the 'Perception' of the buyer when looking at either New or 2nd hand values of an SDV' compared to a medium / high specification 'non SDV' which has more bespoke parts traditional to the Westfield brand.

There needs to be better understanding and advertising of cars for sale, if you genuinley feel your car is worth more than what some similar aged / lower specification cars etc are going for then it needs to be SPELT out in the advert, big it up and SELL the car to the market.

[Renmure]

I sold my Megablade recently for 10k. That represented a depreciation to me of 200 quid over the 2 years I owned it which I think everyone would agree is good going.

However, The car was advertised for about 3 months and I probably received 30 emails, 10 phonecalls and probably 2 genuine 'notes of interest'. Bearing in mind that North East Scotland isnt too handy for the occasional sunday viewing that wasnt too unexpected.

Some of the emails were from people being up front and saying 'I want your car, I think it is worth X, where X was about 2k less than the asking price and  these emails included ones from WSCC members who were supposedly buying for themselves or on behalf of friends.

Because I was under no pressure to sell I made clear to all enquirers that the price was pretty fixed and wasnt a 'bargain' but was the going rate for the spec of car. So in that regard I probably have done 'my bit' for Westfield residuals. However, if I had been keen to shift it quickly you can be assured that the days of the 04 plate, 3000 mile, high spec megablade for 8k would have arrived.

Jim

[Lurksalot]

As a relative newbie I wuold comment I find some comments quite odd .

How can anyone expect a home made kit car, of any make, with a dealer backup of ............... er.............

this website,  to reach the values of a factory (consistently ?) built motor manufacturers offering ?

For those that can afford it, knowing where to take it to put it right can be very reassuring , Its not just the product that sells but the back up.

I was very concerned when I bought mine that I was getting a proper car and,with respect guys and gals, thats why I bought a factory built model.

( even that has  build isssues )

While there is a lot of help available for the hobby mechanic on here some people just ether don't have the ability, or confidence to tackle half the jobs that crop up on here as maintenence and some just don't want to try  .  They can buy that backup but it costs to buy-in to it.

Anyway my westy is  fantastic  and its not for sale

[juansolo]

Please lets not get too wrapped up in branding as that's skirting far too close to the whole heritage thing that has the blatchatters heads so far up their collective arses.  I don't care what badge it's got on the front, if it does the job I want it to do, for a price I can afford, it could just as much be a Caterham, a Sylva or a Robin Hood.  I don't think it's our job to do Westfields marketing for them.  Big up the car because it's good, sure, no problem.  But don't look down your noses at other cars.

What Caterham (and Radical for that matter) do better than anyone else is marketing.  Sure they also have a good product, nothing spectacularly different to what anyone else is doing, but it's very good.  Their marketing on the other hand is exceptional.  They get cars out to the big magazines, they break records with them.  It's all publicity and exposure.  They don't do anything special.  Their answer to the FW400 for example was to jam a race engine into a SuperLight...  Nothing clever about that at all.  The FW400 wasn't made enough of.  If Westfield had shoved the Minister lump into the FW400 it would have been barking and would have got that headline back.  As it was they were overshadowed by Caterhams superior marketing machine.  Who remembers the FW400?  Yet the R500 is still out there and the thing was fragile as hell.  By the time they'd reigned it back in so it didn't detonate if you looked at it funny, it wasn't anywhere near 500bhp a ton but that didn't matter anymore as the reputation had already been gained.

It's not all roses though at Caterham as their sales are notorious for not giving a f**k, whereas Westfield seem to get this spot on.  But perception is something else and getting them to come in through the door in the first place is something they really need to do something about.  Who thinks of the Westfield S2000 as the track monster of choice...?  Who's actually heard of it outside this forum?  Yet again, Caterham stick a different engine in a fatboy chassis and it's everywhere.  Westfield may actually be the innovators in these fields but if nobody knows then it's all wasted.

[MVS]

Please lets not get too wrapped up in branding as that's skirting far too close to the whole heritage thing that has the blatchatters heads so far up their collective arses.  I don't care what badge it's got on the front, if it does the job I want it to do, for a price I can afford, it could just as much be a Caterham, a Sylva or a Robin Hood.  I don't think it's our job to do Westfields marketing for them.  Big up the car because it's good, sure, no problem.  But don't look down your noses at other cars.

What Caterham (and Radical for that matter) do better than anyone else is marketing.  Sure they also have a good product, nothing spectacularly different to what anyone else is doing, but it's very good.  Their marketing on the other hand is exceptional.  They get cars out to the big magazines, they break records with them.  It's all publicity and exposure.  They don't do anything special.  Their answer to the FW400 for example was to jam a race engine into a SuperLight...  Nothing clever about that at all.  The FW400 wasn't made enough of.  If Westfield had shoved the Minister lump into the FW400 it would have been barking and would have got that headline back.  As it was they were overshadowed by Caterhams superior marketing machine.  Who remembers the FW400?  Yet the R500 is still out there and the thing was fragile as hell.  By the time they'd reigned it back in so it didn't detonate if you looked at it funny, it wasn't anywhere near 500bhp a ton but that didn't matter anymore as the reputation had already been gained.

It's not all roses though at Caterham as their sales are notorious for not giving a f**k, whereas Westfield seem to get this spot on.  But perception is something else and getting them to come in through the door in the first place is something they really need to do something about.  Who thinks of the Westfield S2000 as the track monster of choice...?  Who's actually heard of it outside this forum?  Yet again, Caterham stick a different engine in a fatboy chassis and it's everywhere.  Westfield may actually be the innovators in these fields but if nobody knows then it's all wasted.

Well put & exactly whatI was trying to get across so ineptly.    

[stu999]

The Market is Flooded with cars pf all types so values are going to be low in order to sell. If you want prices to rise stop buying new cars and stop selling the ones you have.

It is as simple as that.

Old kit cars rarely die. It is usually only an accident that removes it from circulation. But, at the other end of the spectrum, folk are busy screwing new ones together...

Then, as mentioned before, choice. Off the top of my head, I can think of...

Westfield

Caterham

Dax

MK

Leugo (recently gone pop though...)

Shawspeed

Procomp

F27

Robin Hood

Silva

Stuart Taylor

Raw  

GTS

Razor

Procomp

Quantum

MNR

Tiger

And etc, etc, etc.

And most of the manufacturers listed above (and the ones not included) offer a bewildering array of choice. And this is just 'seveneque' types, not including the 'nearlys' - the likes of SSC, Fisher, et al.

There are a few folk that are looking for this genre of car, that now have a huge choice where to invest their money. A choice which is *literally* growing by the day. Sadly, the reality is that the Westfield seller has to 'price to sell', or the prospective buyer goes elsewhere. Simple as that!

Scoobs, this ain't defeatism, it is realism Legislation aside, why do you think manufacturers are constantly changing their models? A five year lifespan for a particular model, without at least a major facelift is almost unheard of. Yet a Westy still looks essentially the same as it did in the late eighties? Most of us here know a lot has altered under the skin, but the average newbie probably wouldnt. He/she just sees it as more choice...

[MAT1800]

I thought this thread was about second hand car values.. not Westfields marketing techniques? ?

Marketing costs money, it's that simple. Yes you can use that money better or worse, generally though it'll cost an arm and a leg. Why do Caterhams cost more? not because the car is better, not becuase they use higher specs parts, it's because  people are willing to pay more for image, so they pay for the costs of marketing.

I'd rather just pay for a good car....

[juansolo]

Westfields percieved value is intrinsically linked to their marketing.  Caterhams cost so much and have such good residuals purely down to their marketing of the product.  As has been said before; their sales attitude sucks, their product is very good though not vastly different to the likes of Westfield, yet people still go though their doors and pay their prices because they know no better.

[garyo]

Also, an S1 Elise can be had for 7.5k,  MX-5 for 3k,  Mk3 MR2 for 6k - all nice drives.

I'm not saying they're directly comparable cars to those in the list above, but in the margins, there are people who will be buying these instead - a lot easier to justify to the misses, and she can even commute to work in it if she wants (without pulling a face at the suggestion)

Gary

[samcooke]

Caterham values have taken a bigger hit prorata than Westfield ones over the last few years.

A friend used to deal heavily in Caterhams and did well, he now does not, siting the fact that vendors had unreasonably high expectations and purchasers weren't willing to spend the money.

Luxury items take the biggest, earliest hit when times get tough. If mortgage rates, petrol and unemployment continue to rise, expect it to get worse.

The answer is never to sell. Or if you do, buy another one, that'll be cheap too.  

[markcoopers]

Some quite odd assumptions here, and even if I may be so bold a few over stepping the mark.

1) Yes Scooby, we do have a responsibility to price sensibly the cars, and yes we can all do something to help.

2) My job is sales, and some of the adverts I see written and so poor it beggers belief. You want to sell the car, SELL IT! Don't just list the spec, explain whay that spec is so god dam great, make the buyer want your car. That however means that you have to understand your audience, which sadly I is a seperate issue needing consideration. Perhaps cars for sale, 1) Road 2) Motorsport?

3) Before we all go assuming that Westfield are poor in the marketing and that our residuals are their marketing strategy, remember that we are a completely seperate club, and not really their focus or concern as such. As has been stated, the coverage in recent media has been excellent, perhaps we would do well to consider what the factory has achieved?

Leading on from this, why do we assume that the factory are failing if we do not remember the FW400 or 2000s, is this their target market, is this the focus of their activities? have any of you asked them? Who sells the most 7 kits a year?

5) The factory are holding an open event on the 2nd of September, how many of you are going and showing your support for the brand? Westfield have sold nearly all the demo runs to prospective new owners, but the track day is still available. Think of all the potential new owners wanting to get into a westfield........ Show off your cars, and sell. THe club will be there selling the club.

6) Start thinking as a buyer, all those "Hi i'm new, thinking of getting a westfield" posts, help them purchae the right car for them, and they will stick with it longer. This does 2 things, removes cars from the market place, and stops them comming back in.

So stick threads

Road cars for sale and Motorspor cars for sale

Adverts as sales adverts with audience in mind

Support the brand with your car, even if to go to shows/local meets

Help newbies find the right car and support afterwards.

Be prepared for this to take a while.

[scruffythefirst]

All this thing about marketing is a bit odd, dax hardly do any marketing that i've seen and are rarely in the magazines, but have more orders than they know what to do with - i think the waiting list to start your chassis has been over 6 months for 4 years now.  Dax residuals are pretty good but they're coming down, when I ordered my kit I couldn't see any dax's for sale under 15k, now theres several under 10

[Blatman]

it could just as much be a Caterham, a Sylva or a Robin Hood.  I don't think it's our job to do Westfields marketing for them.  Big up the car because it's good, sure, no problem.  But don't look down your noses at other cars.

But we can still make sure that we are the Bentley to Caterhams Rolls Royce. We can talk up the brand but still be senbsible about where we position ourselves, surely? No-one is suggesting that we start to look down on other makes, we simply need to shout a bit louder about all the good reasons that Westfields are a success.

[dern]

What you can do is say in your advert that the car is a serious bargain and Westfields of this spec and performance don't come up often. Then *as long as we ALL help to keep that same thought going when the next bargain comes up we start to build customer expectation that cheap cars are bargains that need to be snapped up, whilst cars that are on offer for 9/10/11K are actually the correct price.

I understand what you're saying and didn't do that because I wasn't sure it was a bargain following my poll and thought personally I was asking pretty fair money for it given the poll and the amount I paid for it as I've already said.

I'll go back and change the ad so it makes it clear that the car's a bargain if you feel it helps the overall cause but I think if anyone has any wits about them and does even the smallest amount of research it'll be evident that it's a bargain. For the people suspicious that there may be something wrong with it no amount of telling them that there isn't and it's a bargain will assauge their fears.

Anyway, if the sale goes through that I'm working on at the moment I'll be off and I'll remove the for sale thread.

Regards,

Mark

[scooby]

Maybe the branding issue is a bit of a grey area, maybe we should look more at educating people of whats under a Westfield.

As many people have said Spec's have changed so much in the last 10 years and well developed cars dont get the kudos that they deserve.

As i have said all along this is an exercise to see IF we can do anything.

Understanding the modding issues but a Westfield is not a Vauxhall Corsa with a bodykit ITS A WELL DEVELPOED SPORTS CAR which should attract a higher price.

Ok the markt goes smaller but re-education of so-called newbies would help them understand the fundimental differences.