" Lets Help Residuals Thread "

[hilux]

QUOTE

How much is a turn key car from ? Westfield about £18000

SO WHY ARE THEY DROPPING by OVER 1/2 in two years...........OUR FAULT GUYS

QUOTE

an escort/vauxhall/bike engine slapped into a plastic body will always be just that no matter how many bells and whistles you stick on it

I`m coming in as an ex plastic car owner (VX Westfield and V8 G27 and the above sum it up for me. Its also why I got out of throwing money down the drain with kit cars.

NO westfield is worth 18000 (XTR excepted) unless its factory built (and that isnt always best IYKWIM) and you all know it.

I have scrutinised many `7` type cars (and kit cars generally) and some are horrendously built even though they look ok to the inexperienced eye.

I took my professionally built Westfield and factory built G27 apart and was amazed at what had been done to save time and money. When I rebuilt them they were spot on and safe and reliable and a better car IMHO.

Unlike Caterham the Westfield is percieved as self built regardless of how many Caterhams are self built.

You can buy a tin top Evo or Scooby (or any number of nice cars) for silly money so why would a lot of people now go for an open noisy plastic car to get superb performance figures up to 80mph.

People go to kit car shows and see Rh`s for 3000 in kit form so will not pay the amount of money for a westy that will get them a nice car thats only a few years old.

S/H cars are astonishingly cheap so wheres the surprise in massive depreciation in kit cars??

My 951 has risen in value with the subtle mods I have made to date and as it ages even more I am confident that its residual will not change much. Its not far off a quick westy acceleration wise even now and will show most a clean pair of heels as the speed rises and all with a/c and cd player etc. When its lightened for track and soon to be near 300bhp theres no contest for me.

Before you say what about the Westy `experience` then I have to say I miss it, however the `experience` is great for an hour or so and then its a real PITA

I have posted here many many times. DO NOT BUILD A NEW ONE. Let someone else take the (now even bigger) hit.

I still miss mine big time though and follow when I can all your antics with a degree of envy and regret, good luck to all of you and dont worry about the cost just drive them.........................

[Thrustyjust]

If I sell my car and I believe it is worth 12k.I sit waiting for a month,thinking,no-one wants it for that money as the phone doesn't ring.What do you do? Think sit there for another month and hold fire on the price? or drop it and see if there is anyone wanting it for less.If someone comes up and throws 10k on your table after 2 months are you going to tell him p155 off or accept that that is what it is worth?.It is only worth what a punter is willing to pay.I know people in this situation and they had started higher,but just got nobs kicking tyres rather that genuine car buyers.It is a buyers market out there.Not just in our type of cars,but others too.Our local Honda dealer has just gone pop.Why? because people don't have money to buy 'normal cars' let alone a car for the weekend.It would be gutting to sell my car for 10k,but if that was 'all I got' that is it's market value.You only have to look at the back of any car mag,like Top Gear and see you can get new cars that retailed at 20k for 12k new.

Luckily my car is not for sale and maybe the market will pick up next year,who knows? Although,I might be tempted with 12K

[brianm]

I think that in the 130 or so posts so far a fundimental aspect of the market has been missed.

Up to maybe 5 or six years ago if you wanted a 7 you only really had the choice of Westfield or Caterham if you wanted the precieved pukka "7" look.

IMHO most of the other  manafacturers producing 7 type cars were pretty obscure being less well known than Westfield who were just slightly less well known Caterham who could hardly be classed as a mainstream volume producer and traded on "heritage" to fill a niche market.

Than a bloke called Champion brought out a book, Mk 1 and 2 Escorts dissapeared from our scrap yards as did the front ends of all scrap Cortinas.

Heritage on cheap and boy did we lap it up.

Anybody who had ever opened the bonnet of a car thought they could build a pukka 7 for £250 (though few ever managed to acheive the £250 challenge) but could'nt manage it without a bit of help.

Over night a whole support industry sprang up to help out the 7 builder and the manafacturers of and variations to the generic maque exploded (only being slightly hampered by SVA) and prospered.

The result was that the 7 has become more popular than ever, the market is flooded with many many cars for sale with examples from the fabulous to the downright hideous from every marque at prices to suit every buyers pocket.

The market is clearly saturated and has been for maybe two years or so, the manafactures have been busy fighting to the death for market share and have generally and gradually cut prices taking precieved "value" out of the generic 7 brand. (think of the Westfield SDV for exmple)

There are simply too many sevens for sale at the present time and will be for a long time to come so what with the manafacturers knocking out ever cheaper kits (MX5 SDV anybody?) and a flooded market residual prices are diven down.

I suspect that what will happen in the future is that as at present sellers will either have to drop the prices of the current cars for sale to a level that the buyers will pay for (afterall that's what this thread is about) or hang on for the "right" punter maybe indefinatly.

Next we'll see another one or two manafactures go to the wall (remember Luago) and only then will the supply begin to dry up a little firming up the residual prices as fewer cars reach the market.

Residuals wise the generic 7 has become a victim of it's own success, the market will re adjust it's self in time to a new level where prices will be inherently lower, there will allways be exceptions with individual cars and maybe one or two manafacturers but bumpy times are ahead and if they want to survive kit prices will come down.

When you put your Westy up for sale it's not only compeating for a buyer with other Westies but every other 7 out there if indeed the owner has catagorically settled on a 7 in the first place, if he's undecieded and just fancys a "kit car" then the Westy is compeating just about every other kit on the market.

We tend to think our potential buyers are looking for a Westy, I believe the buyer makes the descision to buy a generic 7 then looks at which one he wants based on taste and requirements.

Inevitably the car he/she buys will radically different after 12 months of ownership as he/she develops it to what they "actually" want.

Anybody who has owned a motorcycle in the last 12 years or so allready knows the story, the same thing happened to residual UK bike prices when the importers of so called "Grey Bikes" flooded the UK market with cheaper often identical spec euro equivlents of the "Official" UK models.

Look how the cost of new bikes has fallen in the last 10 years or so.

The best thing we can do as a club is continue to prompte our passion, grow our membership and develop our own culture (dare I say heritage) to st us appart from the rest of the mish mash that the 7 market has become.

Just MHO.

Chaz.

I hope this doesn't go over the heads of folks on here as Chaz has nailed it here, times they are a changin, adapt or go under.

Fantastic post  

B.

[Jay m A]

Just bringing this to the top

I have just sold my Westfield within a week of it being for sale (details in the FS section), depreciation being £1250 over 2.5 years.

I had 6 enquiries of which 3 wanted to view the car, first to see bought it.

Its not all bad, perhaps I could have upped the price a bit, but I needed it sold by the end of the month so i priced accordingly. Who knows, perhaps upping it £500 would have generated 0 enquiries. I'm happy, so is the new owner!

[JeffC]

well done on the sale..

I think that that proves if something is priced right it will sell  , yes you may have squeezed another £500 but  if you had started the price with a £10- you maybe wouldnt have got anyone out to see it  

If you click on to pistonheads classified check out which cars have sold in the time this thread has been running its a very small percentage    there are some cheap cars on there also but Im guesiing your car sold on the spec/price.

surely if anyone looking for a seven type car is serious they will look at there budget say £10k , they will list all the cars they can get for there money, looking at Pistonheads classifieds some jump out as overpriced , a buyer is going to go for the best value for money car in his budget  

cant understand Higgstis blade not selling on there it looks a bl**** cheap car especially when theres another £4.5k more expensive  

[Blatman]

I had some more thoughts on this too. I'v e just added some comments on the "How much is my car worth" thread started by Bean, but another issue has raised itself in my tiny mind, and it's this:

The disclaimer first. THIS IS NOT DESIGNED TO LOOK LIKE I'M HAVING A GO AT THE TYPE OF OWNER I AM ABOUT MENTION. I'M NOT HAVING A GO. IT'S JUST AN OBSERVATION FROM MY POINT OF VIEW WHICH I WANT TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION. OK?

How many cars do we see who's owners come along to the Board, where they are a new owner, but admit to having no knowledge of mechanical things, but bought the Westfield to learn, OR say they've bought a Westfield and now need to know where they can take it for servicing, etc?

Quite a few. Would I buy a car who's owner readily admits to using their car as a bit of a test bed for their non existent mechanicing skills? Would I buy a car who's owner was vague about how it works, what work has been done, and who has no familiarity with it other than how to start it and drive it?

I have walked away from tin tops who's owners have been vague about servicing and who can't answer even simple questions. This could lead to some owners having trouble selling their cars, not because they are bad cars, but because they may not be instilling the confidence that more knowledgeable owners might. So they drop the price... As we have seen, it only takes a very small number of cheap cars to have a detrimental effect on residuals. Anyone doing a bit of digging around will soon be able to identify these cars and their owners, and it may just give them pause.

It is also my contention that the not so mechanically minded will fall in to two categories. There are those who will be overwhelmed and quickly tire of the amount of work involved, and sell the car cheaply to cut their losses. There are then those who stick with it, spend lots of time and effort on their cars and do build nice cars. Some of them are the type who enjoy new projects so sell their cars after two or three years. The quality of the work should determine the price, but again the desire for something new in a hurry could lead to a car being undervalued in the search for expediency. Then there are cars being sold because the owners find out they don't like them, or their wives don't like them, or they can't get comfortable or they are too expensive to run or or or... If just 3 or 4 of these come up in a short space of time, residuals look poor and we arrive at where we are now.

Or I'm talking dangler. Vote now...

[Knightmare]

Very fair point and could certainly be true. I would certainly place myself in that category and freely admit to having bought my car as an 'experiment' to see if (a) I can live with something like this (does it live up to the dream), and (b) to try and improve my very basic mechanical skills.

As said previously I looked at plenty of westys and plumped for one which I thought would become a good 'testbed', one which could easily accomodate my desire to tinker and not one where plenty of cash had already been spent, where I would have stood very little chance of maintaining it to that standard.

Those choices in mind I doubt very much that I will make anything on it, but I'm fairly confident that I wont loose a huge amout either. Don't put in more than you are willing to loose for the enjoyment you are looking to gain.

Oh and if you're wondering so far it certainly lives up to the dream and yep my mechanical skills are gradually improving (thanks mainly to this site) !!!

[JeffC]

the other way to look at residuals is...

If the market dictated that  my westy was worth only worth £5k then so be it irrelevant of what I paid for it, the fun Ive had in mine would be worth every penny, best fun Ive had with me clothes on      

And If my car has dropped then every other car will have dropped meaning I could upgrade to a better car for less money .        

more peole would be able to afford westy then everyones a winner  

just wish house prices would drop back down again    

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

....just wish house prices would drop back down again    

Nooooooo goodness me NO!

[jumps on swing from roundabout]

[Bean]

I had some more thoughts on this too. I'v e just added some comments on the "How much is my car worth" thread started by Bean, but another issue has raised itself in my tiny mind, and it's this:

The disclaimer first. THIS IS NOT DESIGNED TO LOOK LIKE I'M HAVING A GO AT THE TYPE OF OWNER I AM ABOUT MENTION. I'M NOT HAVING A GO. IT'S JUST AN OBSERVATION FROM MY POINT OF VIEW WHICH I WANT TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION. OK?

How many cars do we see who's owners come along to the Board, where they are a new owner, but admit to having no knowledge of mechanical things, but bought the Westfield to learn, OR say they've bought a Westfield and now need to know where they can take it for servicing, etc?

Quite a few. Would I buy a car who's owner readily admits to using their car as a bit of a test bed for their non existent mechanicing skills? Would I buy a car who's owner was vague about how it works, what work has been done, and who has no familiarity with it other than how to start it and drive it?

I have walked away from tin tops who's owners have been vague about servicing and who can't answer even simple questions. This could lead to some owners having trouble selling their cars, not because they are bad cars, but because they may not be instilling the confidence that more knowledgeable owners might. So they drop the price... As we have seen, it only takes a very small number of cheap cars to have a detrimental effect on residuals. Anyone doing a bit of digging around will soon be able to identify these cars and their owners, and it may just give them pause.

It is also my contention that the not so mechanically minded will fall in to two categories. There are those who will be overwhelmed and quickly tire of the amount of work involved, and sell the car cheaply to cut their losses. There are then those who stick with it, spend lots of time and effort on their cars and do build nice cars. Some of them are the type who enjoy new projects so sell their cars after two or three years. The quality of the work should determine the price, but again the desire for something new in a hurry could lead to a car being undervalued in the search for expediency. Then there are cars being sold because the owners find out they don't like them, or their wives don't like them, or they can't get comfortable or they are too expensive to run or or or... If just 3 or 4 of these come up in a short space of time, residuals look poor and we arrive at where we are now.

Or I'm talking dangler. Vote now...

I think you're dead right.

I bought my car when it was first advertised on the forum, I got an excellent starter car for a cheap price.

I have enough mechanical knowledge to look after it, for more complex issues I have enough friends who advise me, or I ask on the forum.

I'm now debating (not decided yet) on selling up and going down the track only route. I've never used my car much on the road, I priced up the upgrades to get it the spec' I want too hence thinking about selling the car and buying another instead.

[juansolo]

I'm now debating (not decided yet) on selling up and going down the track only route. I've never used my car much on the road, I priced up the upgrades to get it the spec' I want too hence thinking about selling the car and buying another instead.

*bats eyelashes*

[hilux]

QUOTE

How many cars do we see who's owners come along to the Board, where they are a new owner, but admit to having no knowledge of mechanical things, but bought the Westfield to learn, OR say they've bought a Westfield and now need to know where they can take it for servicing, etc?

Quite a few. Would I buy a car who's owner readily admits to using their car as a bit of a test bed for their non existent mechanicing skills? Would I buy a car who's owner was vague about how it works, what work has been done, and who has no familiarity with it other than how to start it and drive it?

Well said.

I sold mine to a very nice chap. I explained what it was, what to look out for and what to maintain etc.

He left my house in a Tee shirt on a warmish day with his fleece and all the paperwork etc on the passenger seat (no sidescreens fitted although his mate took them in the other car)

I strapped him in but he complained that the belts were too restricting so slackened them off about 3 inches  

Off he went kangarooing up the road.  

A year later he e-mailed me to ask me to write a resume of what the car was as he had no idea what to say so as to sell it  

I wish I had bought it back and am still on the lookout for it  If you know who owns it let me know please

[Lurksalot]

Autotrader has 5 pages of westfields for sale

Granted most are older or lower spec but still,  I bought mine 12 months ago and there was only 1 page  and I got in before greg advertised it .

5 pages    hang on to your residuals while youve still got them    

Looking at the prices a good spec thoudgh would still command close to what it would a year ago.

Unless of course any traders out out there think the cars are well undervalued you could of course buy them all up and make a killing  

[dern]

I've sold mine now so I feel like I can speak without affecting the sale of my car. Basically I think the talk of positive thinking is b*****k* and market forces dictate completely. I had mine advertised a little above 10k for a month and then found 4 people came along who were happy to pay 10k. One bought it. Just possibly I suppose I may have got 11k but of the people I spoke to who were actually in the market for a v8 15k is not even vaguely a realistic figure.

If you're going to stick to your guns and go for the big prize then you obviously risk still having your car come winter because like it or not there are cars out there that people perceive as being better value. The only person who will agree with your pricing is someone who knows your car, wants that exact spec and can see that despite the price you've set it at it's still cheaper than building their own. Either that or you're looking for a cash rich newb.

The final nail in the coffin for me which made me believe all the above was that I offered it a trader who specialises in kit cars at 10k. If they had of believed that my car had of been worth even 12-13k then they would have bought it and put it on the forecourt even if it meant sourcing a screen, doors, heater etc. However, I was told that I was asking far too much and even when I didn't back down or call him back nothing else happened. In addition to this no other traders or speculators approached me about the car.

As for the image of the marque... I think it has an excellent image but as others have eloquently pointed out there are other options for a buyer and I believe that the differences between the options are not as great as some would have you believe. There are some superb examples of MKs out there for example just as there are some extraordinary westfields around (Barry's superb car springs to mind and Justin's zetec car is in fantastic condition).

It's just a car and the market will decide its value. Try to influence it if you like but pricing higher or distributing leaflets at shows (!?) but the price will simply carry on fluctuating up and down depending on how much free cash buyers have.

At the end of the day I got what I wanted out of the car based on what I'd paid for it and the buyer got a good car for a good price in my opinion. What he did not get is a car worth 15k (based on the current market) for 10k and anyone who thinks that's the case is just wrong based on my experiences. If you think I negatively affected the market with the price I asked then frankly I couldn't give a s**t because my circumstances dictated the price based on the market and how quickly I needed to sell and not some self interested keyboard warrior.

Regards,

Mark