dern Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 But then as a seller, you need to be prepeared to admit to yourself that you are the cheap exception to the residual rule. We won't all be the same as you. May I suuggest that you're frustration at the car not selling yet is possibly clouding what may be a more impartial view if you were keeping the car a bit longer. I can certainly see where you're coming from, but there is a bigger picture here which we are trying to explore and understand a bit better so that we don't all end up in a similar position, IE we have a good car to sell, but the general public think they are simply expensive Robin Hoods. I would even dare to suggest that the advert be worded to reflect that someone is getting a serious bargain as Westfields with ths sort of performance don't come up often, and when they do, they are *much* more expensive. You *should* winkle out a bargain hunter whilst at the same time laying down some future customer expectation. Everyone wins... Surely if I were the exception then we wouldn't be having this conversation would we? The reason I didn't labour the bargain side of my car is simply that following the poll I did for price I wasn't sure at all whether I was asking too much or too little so I simply presented it for what it is. I like to believe that it is a bargain but the lack of potential buyers suggests otherwise. Please don't feel constrained to comment on the ad... like I've said before I'd rather make a sale than make a mistake . Your average buyer will be ill-informed and will remain so until a significant amount of time *after* they have bought a car and imo there's nothing we can do about it. If you read through the conversations as to the differences between becs and cecs for example which many of us view as being reasonably light hearted clearly are not viewed as such by many and do nothing but propogate the myths such as the lack of torque of a bec and the inability to handle of the v8. You can't help but fail to be surprised when your average buyer just buys a 5k middle of the road car as a toe in the water... it's exactly what I did and judging by the way sales are going pretty much the thing that many people are doing. The people who are buying the v8s and the becs are the people who have had these cars before (I think). Regards, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbius Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Factory cars will always attract a certain type of buyer, someone who has money but not the time to build one themselves. So if you got to the factory to buy a new one at say £20k and you see one for say 16k which is as new then you have saved £4k on a toy. It is a buyers market as there will always be more cars than buyers at top dollar but that is no reason to give em away. This is what happened to Marcos. They had a big problem with people building their cars badly (not the mechanicals, but the finishing/trimming) and undercutting the value of factory built cars. The reason that I built a Westfield was that I got the impression from Caterham that they were not that interested in selling kits, for a similar reason. I would guess that most people going for a 2000S for example would fork out the extra £3k or so for a factory build rather than pay the £27k or whatever the current price is and build it themselves. Look at the secondhand Porker market - even 911s are not that expensive, and you can buy a half-decent (if you like the styling - which I do) 928S for £3-5k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robandcolin Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 But we have to start somewhere. We won't ever get anything done if that reasoning is applied... I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying it won't make any difference if you do or don't. The problem is to great. You may reach one person but you probably had them anyway if they were looking at the advert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 QUOTE Surely if I were the exception then we wouldn't be having this conversation would we? No, but as I have just said, as "keepers" of the brand we need (as a group, if that is what is to happen) to pick a starting point. My comments are not aimed at you specifically, you just happen to be posting your opinion. It counts equally for anyone, especially the fella who's selling hs Zetec car for under 8 grand at the moment... I agree with the sentiments regarding the average buyer and the impression they may get from the various CEC Vs BEC debates that go on around here. We can't help that, BUT we can help guide a newcomer through the banter and point him to the salient points that may be relevant. Likewise we can start to point to bargains and *say* they are bargains that are exceptional, not normal regardless of whetjer that may be true or not! Image and impressions count for a *lot* these days. New buyers will believe they are getting a product that may actually appreciate, or at worst will cost them nothing in depreciation, whilst at the same time boosting brand image for *everyone*, not just us, but also future owners. As much as I hate to admit it, image is as important as actual value these days. We should turn that to our advantage. It's easy to do too. All we have to do is keep saying it... Put it this way, why is a Rolex better than a Tag? Why is a Tag better than a Timex? Why is a Timex better than a 1.99 watch from the petrol station? Brand image and impression is everything. Put it another way. At work, the biggest budget outside of technical stuff is brand awareness and marketing, and this is not an unusual state of affairs these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 But we have to start somewhere. We won't ever get anything done if that reasoning is applied... I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying it won't make any difference if you do or don't. The problem is to great. You may reach one person but you probably had them anyway if they were looking at the advert. If we do nothing it won't make any difference. If we do take action and we don't make it work, at least we can say we tried. What have we got to lose? Giving up because the problem seems too great is just defeatist and I'll have no truck with that! Grow a pair and get on board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehungrymonkey Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 If we do nothing it won't make any difference. If we do take action and we don't make it work, at least we can say we tried. What have we got to lose? Giving up because the problem seems too great is just defeatist and I'll have no truck with that! Grow a pair and get on board... Wow, Blatman where were you for the half time team talk in Germany recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I was busy with the wops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightmare Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 If we do nothing it won't make any difference. If we do take action and we don't make it work, at least we can say we tried. What have we got to lose? Giving up because the problem seems too great is just defeatist and I'll have no truck with that! Grow a pair and get on board... Well said that man. As stated previously the other reason beside quailty I ended up with a Westy was the help, encouragement and welth of information available to me by members of this club. You start adding all this elements together and they all add to the 'westfield experience'. Does anyone else feel dizzy? There is no easy answer to this everyone wants a slightly different experience from owning a Westfield but I agree with Blatman, we can all (including Westfield) do something to strengthen the brand, but it will take time and a bit of perseverance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehungrymonkey Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Another thought I had when looking for my car was that the cars advertised on here (where I wanted to buy mine from) generally seemed to be less than elsewhere (pistonheads, autotrader etc.). Which to me seems a bit silly, the owners club cars IMO should command a slight premium. I'd always pay slightly more (and if not, be more enthusiastic in the first place) about a car i'd seen on here rather than in Autotrader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robandcolin Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 But we have to start somewhere. We won't ever get anything done if that reasoning is applied... I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying it won't make any difference if you do or don't. The problem is to great. You may reach one person but you probably had them anyway if they were looking at the advert. If we do nothing it won't make any difference. If we do take action and we don't make it work, at least we can say we tried. What have we got to lose? Giving up because the problem seems too great is just defeatist and I'll have no truck with that! Grow a pair and get on board... Ok the but we need to reach a wider audience nunney footing about putting the odd bit on an advert is reaching far too narrow an audiance. What we need is nation wide exposure. Hmm where could we get that then. Ah yes the speed series what we should do is advertise the speed series to spectators (stop me if i'm getting to left field) gaining a wide audiance of non belivers to witness the prowess of a westy on track. Crickey now theres an idea. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morbius Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 That's the point. I don't think a Caterham should command residuals that are as high as they are if you base their value on the raw materials in their make up and/or what you are getting for the money. So *why* do they maintain consistently higher residuals than Westfields? It can only be perceived value, and that perception must come from owners and the factory keeping the brand looking like a premium brand that is worth the money. I would draw the parallel with Harley Davidson motorbikes. They have taken the brand beyond the bike. They are not much, if at all better than similar Custom type bikes, and I would rather have a sportsbike than a Harley if I had to have only one bike, but Harley owners will be round my house to lynch me for saying that Similarly, people who don't know much about seven type cars call them Caterhams. Only one person of the loads that have stopped me to talk about my car recognised it immediately as a Westy. A couple actually called it a Lotus, one asked if it was a Robin Hood, but the remainder thought it was a Caterham. I like to think that is because of my build quality (even the SVA inspectors were impressed), so I don't get y, I just say actually it is a Westfield, and most then said 'Oh, Right. I've heard of them.', so we are not completely anonymous. Realistically, we will only ever drive the Westfield brand up the pecking order if every owner takes a pride in their car and makes the build quality obvious. A lot of owners concentrate on the mechanicals, because that is what they understand, and what makes the car fun (and relatively safe) to drive, but to the average punter looking at his first seven, the aesthetics will play a big part. FWIW, I think the new factory body shape will help a lot, and it looks good in blue. If I had the dosh, I would reshell mine tomorrow, and sod the depreciation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Jackson Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Surely if I were the exception then we wouldn't be having this conversation would we? No, but as I have just said, as "keepers" of the brand we need (as a group, if that is what is to happen) to pick a starting point. My comments are not aimed at you specifically, you just happen to be posting your opinion. It counts equally for anyone, especially the fella who's selling hs Zetec car for under 8 grand at the moment... I agree with the sentiments regarding the average buyer and the impression they may get from the various CEC Vs BEC debates that go on around here. We can't help that, BUT we can help guide a newcomer through the banter and point him to the salient points that may be relevant. Likewise we can start to point to bargains and *say* they are bargains that are exceptional, not normal regardless of whetjer that may be true or not! Image and impressions count for a *lot* these days. New buyers will believe they are getting a product that may actually appreciate, or at worst will cost them nothing in depreciation, whilst at the same time boosting brand image for *everyone*, not just us, but also future owners. As much as I hate to admit it, image is as important as actual value these days. We should turn that to our advantage. It's easy to do too. All we have to do is keep saying it... Put it this way, why is a Rolex better than a Tag? Why is a Tag better than a Timex? Why is a Timex better than a 1.99 watch from the petrol station? Brand image and impression is everything. Put it another way. At work, the biggest budget outside of technical stuff is brand awareness and marketing, and this is not an unusual state of affairs these days... Blatman..... Al this talk of brand owners and quality of the name is almost verging on heritage territory.................... Are you sure you don`t have a Caterham.... One thing I do like about this thread is that it truely demonstrates a massive ammount of passion about Westfields which is great. I dont know if residual values is the correct driver, but I would like to increase peoples awarenss of just how good a car they are and for them to get the respect they deserve. Most proper car enthusiasts know that a well set up 7 (Westie, Catheram etc) is one of the best handling cars in the world. Not just good, but world class. Its a shame Joe Bloggs doesn`t recognise that!!! As an engineer it is the technical / design side that impresses me. The 7 was designed for one job, and nothing does it better. In my book this puts it in a catagory with a McLaren F1, and would have 1 of each in my fantsy garage along with a Landrover (proper 1), mini cooper (original) and possibly an elise all for the same reason. Mat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dern Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 No, but as I have just said, as "keepers" of the brand we need (as a group, if that is what is to happen) to pick a starting point. My comments are not aimed at you specifically, you just happen to be posting your opinion. It counts equally for anyone, especially the fella who's selling hs Zetec car for under 8 grand at the moment... The problem comes when a keeper becomes a seller and then wants to shift their car for whatever reason. If I was in a position to help prop up the prices (or keep them at their rightful level depending how how you look at it) then the chances are I wouldn't be in a position where I had to sell. Due to the luxury nature of the cars you will always be in a situation where there will be sufficient sellers who are prepared to take less money because they want to either free up the cash or move on to the next project sooner rather than later. With the best will in the world I can't see how you can get around that. Added to that you will find people like me who picked up a winter bargain and can afford to sell their cars at a knock down price simply because it just doesn't owe them as much money as it would the original builder. We can definitely talk up the westfield name and the cars because frankly they're bl**** brilliant and it takes no effort and doesn't stretch the imagination and maybe that'll increase demand but there's nothing you can do about the odd car that's a bit cheaper than the rest. I really do feel that it's just a quiet patch though and things will pick up, the cheap cars will go and the status quo will be restored. Regards, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knightmare Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 What we need is nation wide exposure. Hmm where could we get that then. <!--emo& Ah yes the speed series what we should do is advertise the speed series to spectators (stop me if i'm getting to left field) gaining a wide audiance of non belivers to witness the prowess of a westy on track. Crickey now theres an idea. Rob Right idea, wrong direction. If it's gaining a broader audience and enlightening them to the benefits of Westfield ownership we/Westfield need to be targeting Joe Bloggs not those already interested track day outings - these guys will already know about Westfields. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen write ups on Caterhams, but I've never seen a write up on a Westy outside of a kitcar mag. Is there a reason why Westy's shouldn't grace the pages of Auto Express, TopGear, and the countless other 'generic' car mags? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthehungrymonkey Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 I've lost count of the number of times I've seen write ups on Caterhams, but I've never seen a write up on a Westy outside of a kitcar mag. Is there a reason why Westy's shouldn't grace the pages of Auto Express, TopGear, and the countless other 'generic' car mags? Exactly. Westfield is still a "kit car manufacturer", not a "car manufacturer", with cars that come in kit form. A la Caterham. In the mind of Joe and bloggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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