So... Brexit rant, once again

[Steve (sdh2903)]

53 minutes ago, Arm said:

Very interesting chat with a chap who works for one of the big pharmaceutical companies supplying the covid vaccine. 

As neither of us voted for brexit it was effectively an impartial statement to say being out of the eu definately helped the  uk vaccine situation.

 

I've heard this a lot. But never heard the reason why? Did they elaborate?

 

We as an eu member had the right to self procure vaccines outwith the eu. Just as we did by being out? We were just quicker in putting the orders in. Nothing to do with being in or out as far as I understand.

[Arm]

I got the impression the rules and regs on companies developing and producing were being controlled by the eu so as to ensure the eu as a whole benefited.  I can only assume the remaining eu member could also have done their own thing but didn't/ couldnt and we would have likely been impacted in the same way as them.  It all sounded a v complex set of situations for a company to work with and being 'out' was a benefit. Whether we could have done so we won't know. But he didn't think so.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I've heard this a lot. But never heard the reason why? Did they elaborate?

 

We as an eu member had the right to self procure vaccines outwith the eu. Just as we did by being out? We were just quicker in putting the orders in. Nothing to do with being in or out as far as I understand.

But the EC didn't want that to happen as they wanted the bloc to show 'solidarity'. That's why no member state did it and part of the reason they were late 

[jeff oakley]

The vaccine issue was very complicated. Macron was pushing the French Vaccine they were developing to the EU as being the one the EU should use. Unfortunately and I mean this, it did not work so there was a big supply issue now.

 

On top of that there were many false stories about the AZ one being not good enough but once the French one was out of the picture to try to get everyone to accept it was harder.

 

Being in the EU meant that vaccines should have been shared out equally but the UK had ordered theirs well in advance and paid a lot up front as well as ordering others just in case the AZ one didn't work as well.

 

I think others could have done the same but chose not to do so. I think being in or out would have not changed this aspect, however the expectation of France to produce one was what delayed everything.

 

Politics played too big a part for the EU as it wanted their vaccine to be the one which it was not. Had it have been anywhere good enough the uptake might have been better across the EU and helped to stop the spread.

 

Brexit is one of the most divisive things that ever happened to the UK, regardless of how you voted. It was a democratic vote, both sides lied and exaggerated. Sadly there was almost 13 million who did not vote and approximately 18 who did not bother to get on the electoral register, so some say the leave camp did not actually have a mandate to leave, but the facts remain that of those who voted leave won the day.

 

We will never go back in the foreseeable future  so instead of rerunning everything we need to get together, move forward and try to make the country better instead of waiting for things to go wrong so they can say told you so. 

[Blatman]

46 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

Sadly there was almost 13 million who did not vote and approximately 18 who did not bother to get on the electoral register, so some say the leave camp did not actually have a mandate to leave,

 

And by the same definition, Remain had no mandate to remain, unless they spin it as the entire bloc of non voters would have voted remain.

Thankfully, elections, here in the UK at least, are not often subject to "what if" for very long. Votes are counted, a result anounced and more often than not the vast majority of us consider that to be fair enough and most of us will accept defeat as graciously as we celebrate victory, with a metaphorical "well played" and a promise to do better next time. Anything else and we risk letting ourselves down quite badly.

[Arm]

Sounded like the eu were wanting things on their terms but the UK had broken free from that and give a commitment to buy when available.

[jim_l]

16 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

approximately 18 who did not bother to get on the electoral register, so some say the leave camp did not actually have a mandate to leave,

 

I have seen this chart used in the 'did not have a mandate' argument, the 18 million, if I understand correctly, includes about 14 million children. This is indicative of the disingenuous nature of the whole discussion, both sides!  

 

The same will be true in 5 years if we revisit, it will be difficult to separate out the impacts of the money we spend addressing climate change, the huge debts of coronavirus, Brexit, other factors in a changing world. 

 

In 5 years I may be able to say whether I feel better or worse off,

1.  Will I honestly be able to say it is because of one particular thing - No!   
2. Will I be able to present arguments attributing it to one thing - Of course I will. 

So the future is endless antagonism unless we say 'time to move on'

 

Mostly, I think the sooner politicians on both sides move on, the better.  At some point the EU said 'you can't cherry pick' but you know what, the cherries are there for both sides to pick, at this point they are rotting on the tree. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pco]

On 24/10/2021 at 17:04, Arm said:

Very interesting chat with a chap who works for one of the big pharmaceutical companies supplying the covid vaccine. 

As neither of us voted for brexit it was effectively an impartial statement to say being out of the eu definately helped the  uk vaccine situation.

too busy on a siesta to put their orders in! 🤣

[SootySport]

On 18/10/2021 at 17:18, maurici said:

Well then, the disclamer. Long and biased post ahead. Will we manage to keep it civil and realistic?

 

I'm doing that before my membership expires, as this place is by far the more pro Brexit biased community I'm involved with, well above my close social circle, and definitely well above my workplace too, so, If I really want to have any opinion other than "this is all f***** up" It will be easier to find it here rather than the other places I'm involved with.

 

I did reply to a random topic a few months ago saying that "Brexit wasn't that bad" based on my individual experience but I could not see the benefits to a nationwide level... well, that was because I had not tried to travel for long time to my birthplace. Now I do have a very, very different view about it.

 

Let's start with facts (or lies that are actually happening if you are on denial).

 

-Taking your race car to Europe towing, will cost you between 175 and 1000 quid in ATA carnets for temporary export... depending on the car's value. If like me, you travel often and you bring cars back and forth from the uk to Spain (Europe) you are screwed. I found this the hard way when I was arrested in Bilbao port for trying to "smuggle" a race car (like it was shoved up my ass...) and had not been because my uncle is a really hard rank in the Basque autonomical police, I would probably lost my Race car and costed me **** loads of money, plus a court case. This will be like this FOREVER. So... trackdays to Spa and Nurburg with unregistered cars, are OVER(well, not over but twice as expensive). Only registered roadgoing cars. Also selling cars overseas is less attractive, as buyers have to go to an additional 20% expense above the car price.

 

-Your pet can't travel to Europe with the European passport anymore. now will cost you around 200 quid for the health certificate every 6 months. This will be like this forever.

 

-Bringing product from my home town (olive oil, tomatoes, Spanish ham...) is considered smuggling, so... don't do that if you go to Spain. Aside of this, unless is properly packaged you can't bring it even if you declare it. This will also stay forever. Also found it the hard way... and we were "let go" as it wasn't that much of a quantity. They are going to go more strict from now on.

 

-Roaming- Now every individual, or professional going to Europe, will have to pay at least 2 quid per day to get the same phone service previously given for free. 3 weeks in Spain will be 50 quid out of your pocket above what you are actually paying.

 

-Sterling pound crash. From 1.45 euros per pound crashed to under 1.10 and never quite recovered. Going to magaluf to get drunk is around 20% more expensive. Going elsewhere to do something else is also 20% more expensive.

 

-Lack of manpower for many things. Hospitality had to raise the minimum wage even for untrained waiters. going out for dinner is more expensive now. Minimum wage in uk was already mental compared to most of Europe. Really an unqualified person has to earn that much? even with this, the struggle to find uk nationals to work is massive. My partner has absolute nightmares trying to get staff and over 10k of the 35k rooms her company manages are shut due lack of staff. Been like this for 6 months, since the reopening in April, while the available rooms are consistenly sold out. Not sure with the current 3% of unemployment this situation will ever be reverted or if hospitality in Uk is damaged, quite badly for a long time.

 

-Nhs has lost many of the European workers (well, most of it) as the experience acquired in uk is no longer relevant in Europe. A health worker is as good as their merits. (10k lost only on people that went back to Spain, I don't manage German, French and eastern European workers but surely some of them left too) the few ones that I know came back are earning about 40% over their old contracts. A massive screw up if you ask me, as historically UK has been the destination of the health workers around Europe, and you could NEVER have enough of them... I'm amazed that the Health qualifications and merits/experience wasn't dealt separately to protect this workers given how important they are.

 

-All the self employed truck drivers and small overseas transport companies, won't bother to work in uk is too difficult to set up the finances and taxes out of Europe. Also the possibility of a 2 day wait in port due customs being overloaded, puts off the few that were willing to work. When there is peaks on demand, there is lack of product as there is no way to bring the product to the distribution centers. (despite offering up to 65quid per working hour as a driver only). Also for British truckers, go over the borders is a massive pain.

 

All of the above, in a country that didn't need that as unemployment pre/brexit was consistently under 5% and one of the best figures around Europe.

 

-Added difficulty to work overseas. Going to test to Germany, Italy, or Spain is now an ABSOLUTE nightmare, and some projects have been delayed because cars and equipment was held in customs. Nothing wrong with the paperwork, only slow process. Added difficulty that will stay forever.

 

-Several uk professionals, mostly investigators and people in the public sector have lost their ability to work elsewhere than uk unless they renew and homologate their qualifications in Europe. Also something that will stay forever.

 

And this is just stuff that I have experienced first hand, many more stuff to find around if you look or want to beleave internet.

 

If you want DATA about the stuff I'm saying, do your homework, find how many NHS contracts have been renewed for European and at what cost, or go and find the figures of how many Spanish health workers have been repatriated (and was great timing for covid), find yourself the nationwide news about Hospitality workers shortage, and truck drivers (now earing over 60 quid per hour... all to impact in the product price that will be paid by the buyers), find yourself the regulations on importing fresh food, self produced goods, race cars, and pet traveling. Go and find the historical values of the sterling pound I'm not going to link them here. Is all available information.

 

Now: here comes the genuine question, I won't even ask for data.

 

How your daily life has improved since Brexit? was it worth it? will you even be alive when you see any potential benefit about it? How long do you think will take to revert the situation from a pity to a massive improvement worth all the pain?

 

I can see the average Joe ranting "Britain is great again" while heading to the Wetherspoons to have their 20 quid worth of pints, but for the educated, and thinking capable pro brexiters around, where do yo see the improvements? where do you see the advantages?

If I remember well, one of the big selling points for the Brexit campaign was that every uk home was paying about 1000 pounds to Europe every year that was never coming back... I think if we add up all the above for an average person, we are well above this 1000 pounds...

 

Yes, this is a biased post, This last few months trying to go to Spain for a long time and trying to organise work overseas have been an absolute nightmare, however, I will be happy to see the benefits and be educated. Genuine, please, prove me wrong and make me see that nobody else is suffering this consequences.

 

Please, avoid trying to make a post saying all I'm stating is a lie, not accurate, wrong.. whatever. Try to focus on educate me (us on the actual benefits) put a list together and enlighten me. I'm going trough all the trouble of writing this as I have a genuine interest on understanding what I'm missing. It obviously can´t be all bad as all the above was predictable and I would expect the people in charge would have protected it... or if they couldn´t do it, it was a genuine massive colective benefit that has not been yet revealed?

 

Ps. Brexit was not about me, I know, I just happen to be an individual that suffers all the above. My British neighbour will suffer the same when trying to go with the caravan to Spain or France and taking the dog, and buying some ham for example... so yes, is a wide situation, not only me.

 

Ps2. I'm holding my umbrella very hard, and is leaking everywhere, no need to tell me to get f***** either, I'm already getting heavily f*****.

Have to agree with all that but we do have our freedom, sorry “!!!Freedom!!!” as Wolfy Smith says 😁

Actually the biggest reasons for voting out of EU was the amount of Refugees accessing our Social car system and the cheap labour being hired by a few large companies.

Little did the YES voters know, that the Refugee program has nothing to do with Free movement pan Europe, it’s a United Nations agreement.  

[Richard (OldStager)]

6 minutes ago, SootySport said:

as Wolfy Smith says 😁

 

giving your age away with that reference, good series that 👍

[Andy - a15cro]

I thought it was 'power to the people'?

[Richard (OldStager)]

that was his battle cry, yeah.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, SootySport said:

  😁

Actually the biggest reasons for voting out of EU was the amount of Refugees accessing our Social car system and the cheap labour being hired by a few large companies

Interested to know if you have statistics to back this up? 

[SootySport]

12 hours ago, Stuart said:

Interested to know if you have statistics to back this up? 

It’s not hard to find out https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-statistics-year-ending-september-2021/summary-of-latest-statistics

However, I referring to the perceptions of the Leave EU brigade and there’s a fair few family, friends and TV interviews with the public that express their views. 

[Stuart]

@SootySport I meant statistics to back up your assertion that the main reason people voted for Brexit was to keep out refugees.  Free EU immigration was certainly a factor for some voters, but that's very different to keeping out people who have genuine humanitarian need for refuge.