So... Brexit rant, once again

[jim_l]

Firstly Maurici, your points, item by item, 
...Taking your race car to Europe
...Your pet can't travel to Europe 
...Bringing product from my home town (olive oil, tomatoes, Spanish ham...
...Roaming
...Added difficulty to work overseas.

 

Really - what percentage of the population do that stuff, and how many in the poorer areas of the UK that voted for Brexit?  

 

Sterling pound crash - actually immediately before the Brexit vote sterling was about 1.20, it is about 1:20 now. 

 

The NHS and European workers...there are 6 million EU citizens living here, no wonder we were short of doctors and nurses. 

 

Lack of manpower for many things - no, Maurici, not a lack of manpower, a lack of CHEAP manpower.  There are 1 .2 million unemployed and another 2 million that are 'economically inactive' but would like a job if pay and conditions were decent . 

 

Here is a list of the dubious benefits of cheap labour:

 

1) It makes doing nothing and having the government feed and house you more attractive. 

 

2) Low earners pay little or no tax, AND require more in benefits, a double whammy. The government has to choose between doing less for the needy, or just borrowing more money, hence the £2 trillion national debt.

 

3) Businesses won't invest in automation when labour is cheap , hence the UKs atrocious productivity. 

 

4) We have such a thing as 'in work poverty' 2 million people that work full time, in poverty - brilliant EU, what a success!

 

Jim. 

[jim_l]

I prefer to think, rather then the benefits of being out, what were the benefits of being in?  How have the  working class men and women of the UK done in the EU, here is my take...

 

Wages started trending downwards after joining and have kept going , they are lower now ( as a % of GDP) in all of the wealthy nations that joined early, This is a wholly predictable effect of forming a single market, no tariffs and no quotas, with nations where the minimum wage is much much less than ours, in some cases almost a tenth of ours. 

 

Nations are sinking into debt, they collect less income tax because their workers earn less, and they collect less corporation tax because we are in a single market with countries with much lower rates than ours. So governments have fewer resources available to improve the lot of less well off citizens. 

 

I haven't seen the foundation of any argument that our lot was improved by being in the EU, the wealthy have done well, corporations have done well, nations and individuals have become indebted and impoverished. 

 

You may argue that this is just the UK, but no, look at the rising debt of 'prosperous' nations like Germany and France, unable to collect enough income tax because wages are low.  Unable to tax corporations, because in the single market Luxembourg, Ireland and Switzerland collect it all at very low rates.   Look at the rising levels national debt,  of poverty, food bank use, and homelessness in those 'prosperous' nations

 

Look at 40% youth unemployment in Spain - is Spain an EU success story? 

 

I am yet to be convinced of how lives in the working class towns that were key to the Brexit vote were improved by being in. 

 

Jim

 

 

[Arm]

8 hours ago, scoob said:

too bad there's not enough of them and now the army has to step in 

Oh yes good point. So 100 army drivers were made available to deliver fuel. Dont know how many were used, I didn't see or here of any around here. Dont know what it's like elsewhere but no issues in my town and even in the middle of the crisis we didn't have a problem getting fuel. 

 

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

Really - what percentage of the population do that stuff, and how many in the poorer areas of the UK that voted for Brexit?

 

Lots do. Sorry, did.

 

Generally speaking the folks who didn't have any interactions or interests with Europe are the ones saying brexit was the only option.

 

 

 

In the second part of your statement how many of the poorer areas of the uk have seen any benefit post brexit? Rising prices across the board, no benefits increase, no drop in unemployment. Isn't that just making the poorer areas poorer?

 

Am only going off what I've read or seen on the news but I'd say there was a rapid increase in poverty related issues?

 

I personally think that the tragedy of the covid pandemic has masked a lot of the issues surrounding brexit and only now will we really start to see the issues starting to bite as we start to return  to 'normal'.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

9 hours ago, Arm said:

The UK truckies i worked with think its great.  They are now getting a decent wage. 

 

My brother in law is a truck driver and his view is he's taking it while he can. It's not sustainable and the bubble will burst at some point. 

 

He's seen temp contracts being bandied around with wages higher than what a GP would start on!

[Steve (sdh2903)]

13 hours ago, Rush Motorsport said:

But we’ve got our blue passports back Maurici, that’s the important thing! 😄

 

Haha made in Poland I believe, following the cheaper labour perhaps?

 

Up here in Scotland the government took over a shipyard, they also need new ferries. Ideal owning a shipyard. Nope they are to be made in turkey, Romania or Poland. Even with import tariffs much cheaper.

 

The government(s) are nothing but a bunch of hypocrites.

 

 

[maurici]

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

 

Really - what percentage of the population do that stuff,?  

Really? what percentage of the population has life outside the island?

 

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

2) Low earners pay little or no tax, AND require more in benefits, a double whammy. The government has to choose between doing less for the needy, or just borrowing more money, hence the £2 trillion national debt

my partner came to this country earning minimum wage and was like this during 2 years. Had money to pay rent, had her own car, paid indeed taxes, and council tax. We´ve never claimed for any benefit. I´ve never had to give her any money to live. This is the sort of lies you were told during brexit... Minimum wage in uk was incredibly good. And while would not be enough to live in central london, would suffice to live anywhere else decently. We even went on holidays every now and then back then... so... sorry. You are WRONG:

 

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

Sterling pound crash - actually immediately before the Brexit vote sterling was about 1.20, it is about 1:20 now

nope. before the start of the brexit campaing the pound was at 1.40. I know it because it what what I paid every pound when I came to live here at 2015. Crashed at the speed the brexit was getting stronguer.

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

The NHS and European workers...there are 6 million EU citizens living here, no wonder we were short of doctors and nurses

10% of the uk population is from overseas... ok. over 25% of NHS was from overseas. The loss isn´t proportional to the needs.

 

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

I am yet to be convinced of how lives in the working class towns that were key to the Brexit vote were improved by being in

Do this people only work and live for uk? uk is rather small... they don´t happen to buy EU products in the supermarket for example... haven´t you noticed the rise on prices of fresh product? because my shopping cart is now more expensive than ever.

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

a lack of CHEAP manpower.  There are 1 .2 million unemployed and another 2 million that are 'economically inactive' but would like a job if pay and conditions were decent

this makes me laught. I can´t really answer this. "2 milion unemployed that would like a job if pay was decent". because serving dishes 37.5 hours a week in a restaurant for 1300 quid a month is slavery... please... unqualified, untrained people have unqualified untrained Jobs and salaries... here and everywhere. The difference here is that people happens to be to snob to do some of the jobs. Most benefits are given to UK nationals. It wasn´t easy at all to claim any benefit as inmigrant, trust me, I´m one and I know. The problem is the nationwide economy needed this people to work. Shutting big companies, reducing revenue due lack of manpower, and ultimately have the workers left working with added pressure and bigger workload is hardly a better situation than before.

7 hours ago, jim_l said:

I prefer to think, rather then the benefits of being out, what were the benefits of being in? 

And yes. What I was expecting. Not a single reason why to leave really, and a post trying to deny what is actually happening.

I´m really wondering what kind of understanding of how things work you may have when your are lead to question how big percentage of the population, and companies have dealings with Europe... 

 

[scoob]

6 hours ago, jim_l said:

I prefer to think, rather then the benefits of being out, what were the benefits of being in?  How have the  working class men and women of the UK done in the EU, here is my take...

 

Wages started trending downwards after joining and have kept going , they are lower now ( as a % of GDP) in all of the wealthy nations that joined early, This is a wholly predictable effect of forming a single market, no tariffs and no quotas, with nations where the minimum wage is much much less than ours, in some cases almost a tenth of ours. 

 

Nations are sinking into debt, they collect less income tax because their workers earn less, and they collect less corporation tax because we are in a single market with countries with much lower rates than ours. So governments have fewer resources available to improve the lot of less well off citizens. 

 

I haven't seen the foundation of any argument that our lot was improved by being in the EU, the wealthy have done well, corporations have done well, nations and individuals have become indebted and impoverished. 

 

You may argue that this is just the UK, but no, look at the rising debt of 'prosperous' nations like Germany and France, unable to collect enough income tax because wages are low.  Unable to tax corporations, because in the single market Luxembourg, Ireland and Switzerland collect it all at very low rates.   Look at the rising levels national debt,  of poverty, food bank use, and homelessness in those 'prosperous' nations

 

Look at 40% youth unemployment in Spain - is Spain an EU success story? 

 

I am yet to be convinced of how lives in the working class towns that were key to the Brexit vote were improved by being in. 

 

Jim

 

Being one of the 1.3 million UK citizens who lived and worked in the EU prior to 2020 I really would like to see some benefits to this so that at least it doesn't all seem to be a political stunt designed to invoke Churchill style nationalism and culture wars. Overnight we lost all sorts of rights and freedoms that because they had existed our entire lives were assumed to be inalienable.  If that was to be for the tangible benefit of the majority of others, then so be it. 

 So the benefits of being out?

  As you said, "Nations are sinking into debt".  and "Wages started trending downwards after joining and have kept going". Very true and an absolute body blow for anyone who has to work for minimum wage, making it almost akin to slavery because one cant afford the time off to train for, or look for something better.  That could be a result of our model of unrestricted business. Unfortunately Boris's plan post EU is for less restrictions on business and the finance sector. (A total mangling of the word Liberalism) With less restrictions on them when have Big Business ever decided to pay more than they can get away with?  The benefits of all this will mostly go to the finance sector who can now play their complex games without the pesky oversight of EU regulators and can enjoy free trade zones and tax havens. This is why the donors and backers who paid for all this are now rubbing their hands with glee.

 "40% unemployment in Spain"  After a quick Google search.. the figure is 16.2% or  3.41 million. How do we know this would be any better if Spain left the EU? This is the gamble that the UK government has thrown at us. To do so it made a lot of really neglected and underserved people in areas of the UK believe that the EU was to blame for all of their woes, when in fact it was the policies of that very same government.

   I got to correct you on Switzerland.. they have always avoided joining so that they can continue with their funky finance sector

 

I would really like to believe Brexit will cure all of your ails. I guess time will tell 

 

 

[Captain Colonial]

Yet to see the forum Brexiteer big guns enter the fray but that’s okay, still got lots of popcorn… 

 

Foreigner / Immigrant who came over and took your jobs / Naturalised citizen 😂

 

/and yes, I’ve had people say the “coming over here taking our jobs” bit to my face in the past - and generally, they were upper middle class

[scoob]

Im all ears if they've got anything solid to say

[maurici]

1 hour ago, Captain Colonial said:

/and yes, I’ve had people say the “coming over here taking our jobs” bit to my face in the past - and generally, they were upper middle class

Yeah. Ive had that too.

I normally answer that i dont steal jobs, i just focus on raping wives and eating children.

[TAFKARM]

@maurici Coming over here, hitting our apexes. 

[Arm]

When did he ever hit an apex ?

[jim_l]

You have failed to answer my questions Maurici:

 

What percentage of the working class population in the poorer areas of the UK take a race car to Europe, take a pet to Europe, etc. 

 

How lives in the working class towns that were key to the Brexit vote were improved by being in.

 

You misrepresent the facts:

Sterling averaged roughly 1.25 for the first 6 months of 2016, it was not 1.40 at any point in 2016, and currencies fluctuate all of the time. 

 

People that live on their own in the UK and earn minimum wage, a) most will require benefits unless they find very cheap accommodation,  b) all would be officially defined as in 'in work poverty' and c) the little tax they do pay would be a long way from covering what the government spends on them, the government is borrowing to fill the gap. 

 

"10% of the uk population is from overseas... ok. over 25% of NHS was from overseas"
NO! - 10% of the UK population is from the EU, 'overseas' is a different thing. The 6 million EU citizens in the UK is those that have stayed, nobody knows how many more were here, a lot, if the shortage of cheap labour is an indication, but NHS staff that are EU citizens is about 6% and only more than that in London, at 11%. 

 

I have at no point denied anything that is happening, if I have please be specific. In any case the waters have been muddied by the pandemic and you cannot attribute higher shipping costs, driver shortages, energy price rises, etc to Brexit (Poland is 60,000 drivers short) 

 

Let me summarise my feelings, 

 

The Brexit deal is a bad deal for us and for the EU -  the worst possible outcome, this is because for the EU Brexit must be seen to fail, and because our negotiating position was weakened by infighting our own country and Parliament. There are many many areas where mutual benefit can come from us being closer to the EU, and that may come in time, but the EU can make many of the issues go away any time it wants to, the UK represents a huge proportion of the EU trade surplus with the rest of the world, and that will erode if difficulties persist.  The EU can bend the rules when it wants to, e.g. Switzerland, full access to the single market but 'pretending' to have free movement of people.

 

Globalisation has failed all but the wealthy, the guy in Cambodia that gets $2 to make your £100 training shoe is still poor, as is the shop worker that sold you them, and in the process we killed the planet with container ship emissions.  I can't believe we ship carbonated water from south east Asia!  We need to make stuff here, stop using forced or cheap labour from abroad, we make it cheaper using automation, creating skilled jobs. 

 

I am very much pro immigration, I support us caring for people in need from all over the world, but uncontrolled economic migration is a stupid idea, economic migration should a) meet a need, and b) be met by proportional increased resources in housing, education, healthcare, other infrastructure, otherwise it creates 'ghettos' in our towns - yes they exist! 

 

Reasons to leave, I thought there were plenty in my post - The EU is a low  wage, low corporation tax economy that leave governments and people indebted and impoverished (even people working full time) It will get worse when such candidates as Macedonia (minimum wage £200 a month)  Montenegro, Albania and Serbia, join. 

[scoob]

how can we really expect the UK government to step in and raise wages and increase environmental regulation, over and above what the EU was already doing.

The above post highlights in truth many problems,  I can't see one however that will be fixed by Brexit.