Democracy----You cannot be serious!

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, Captain Colonial said:

Cominic Dummings doing whatever he liked while everyone else was locked down through to an MP not wearing a face mask on a train when it was supposedly compulsory (he said he forget until someone took his photo...) and bars having to close at 10 - except those in Parliament for the MPs which don’t have to close.

 

Not just Cummings. There was the Scottish Health Sec (IIRC) visiting a second home TWICE.

But also during lockdown on my daily walk around the local park there were dozens upon dozens of small groups not complying with the rules back then, but because these people, who are far worse than the occasional individual breach because they were pretty much continuous and in groups of well more than two, it seems that one rule for them and one rule for us extends to one standard for them and another for us which during a pandemic is just dumb as we are all at equal risk. Why aren't those caught breaching lockdown regs given the same public pasting for posing the same risks as everyone else?

 

And for the sake of clarity, this is devils advocate, I don't for one minute want to suggest that those in power should be exempt or have separate rules. Quite the opposite in fact, and I do realise MP's should be held to a higher standard. But If we name and shame lockdown breaches, then we should list EVERYONE who has received a caution or a fine. 

 

On the subject of "staff bars", there is a coffee shop on-site where I work where we now have to wear masks and the only seating available is outside. All the internal seating has been put beyond use since the start of the March lockdown, but there is no restriction on opening hours which are as normal. The staff canteen has remained shut throughout and there are no plans yet for it to re-open. Prior to masks being compulsory in the coffee shop we were strictly observing social distancing although I witnessed at least one obvious breach which I put down to the familiarity of being at work with colleagues. People do relax and forget themselves.

[Captain Colonial]

8 minutes ago, Blatman said:

Why aren't those caught breaching lockdown regs given the same public pasting for posing the same risks as everyone else?

Because we don’t elect them or necessarily pay their salary through taxation.  But yeah, I’m all for a special page in the papers or on the web naming and shaming.  Mind you, there are times when I think the pillory and the stocks in town centre with a stand nearby where you can get rotten veggies to throw would be a welcome return.

 

 

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

Two things: I seem to remember that the Commons bars are closing at ten, and this individual is not a government advisor, but aspired to be PM Corbyn at dinner party for nine under Rule of Six order. Let's subject him to the same endless (it's still being trotted out) tirade that Cummings was subjected to. Cummings is, of course, an arrogant sod, but Corbyn is a publicly funded, senior elected politician who's still an idol for many.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

23 minutes ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

I seem to remember that the Commons bars are closing at ten

 

They are now after the press got hold of the fact they were staying open. 

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

They are now after the press got hold of the fact they were staying open. 

 

Doesn't the Palace of Westminster count as workplace areas though? If there was a bar at my private workplace why would it need to close when it isn't publicly accessible? What about the bar in my house? Not public and I'm not closing it at 10pm 'cos that's when cocktail hour starts. I mean really...

 

Quote

Because we don’t elect them or necessarily pay their salary through taxation.

 

Un-elected officials fair enough but do we then hold them to the same higher standard as elected officials, which is what is going on here. There will be thousands of civil servants (I know Cummings is not a Civil Servant) who should also be held to the same higher standard but because we have never seen them on TV they will get away with breaches without any problem. So higher standard by dint of the fact that we know who they are or where they live and that their demeanor rubs us (or rather the reporter) up the wrong way? Forget integrity, forget balance, forget legitimate mitigation (not saying Cummings excuses were legitimate but he wasn't prosecuted...), we're after you because you're on TV and we don't like you so we'll do our level best to find an angle to tear you down. A week after the story broke the best the police can do is suggest he might have broken the rules even IF he did, it was a minor breach. And that follow up was not in the main news area on the BBC site like the news of the breach was. This was buried in the Politics section which few people read...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52835982

[Captain Colonial]

1 hour ago, Blatman said:

Forget integrity, forget balance, forget legitimate mitigation (not saying Cummings excuses were legitimate but he wasn't prosecuted...), we're after you because you're on TV and we don't like you so we'll do our level best to find an angle to tear you down.

Er, no.  It was because he was a scientifically unqualified (in this area) part of a team of people telling the entire population what to do and especially what not to do during lockdown and then not doing it himself.  TV had nothing to do with it (until he called his own unprecedented news conference in the garden of No 10 and lied his head off, that is).  It’s about hypocrisy in not doing what he was telling others to do, and that was hypocrisy and humbug of the highest order.  Prosecution or not has zero to do with it.

 

It reminds of the Andrew Mitchell Plebgate affair.  His (rejected) libel defence was that he didn’t call a copper a “pleb” but the fact remains that he freely admitted that he swore at the officers repeatedly, an act that would earn ordinary you or me a Public Order Offence and a trip to the nick.  Just because Cummings wasn’t prosecuted doesn’t make it right or make him the innocent victim.

[Arm]

Is Cummings still being discussed ? Just wow. Its gone , its dead and buried, press didnt prise him out, i dont keep bringing up corbyn or abbot. I dont care for him and if he had done wrong then bring a case against him. Otherwise seriously its a dead end cause. 

[Captain Colonial]

Oh it’s very dead of course, but it’s where the rot set in regarding people using their common sense to protect themselves and others during COVID and we’re all continuing to suffer as a result.

[Arm]

Rubbish. Certain elements of the population didn't need an excuse they weren't going to do anything they were told. Its a UK population issue not some bloke driving to Durham.  We would be in exactly the same situation if Cummings had never been heard of. 

[DonPeffers]

1 hour ago, Arm said:

Certain elements of the population didn't need an excuse they weren't going to do anything they were told.

 

 

Jeremy Corbyn and Stanley Johnson apologise for Covid breaches.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/01/jeremy-corbyn-stanley-johnson-apologise-covid-breaches-mask-rule-six

[Arm]

Is corbyn blaming cummings ? 

It looks like corbyn is likely to be fined if not already done so. If cummings had done wrong then fine him too. I dont care but we have to move forward.

[DonPeffers]

In football (soccer for our American cousins) there is a saying "lost the dressing room" which usually signals the end for a manager. It signals the players no longer respect him nor follow his instructions.

Perhaps previously successful, the players have become disenchanted and don't or won't perform for the manager. The Board look at lost games, lost fans, lost trophies , lost revenue and prestige.

 

It only ever ends with the manager walking.

 

Politics is a bit different, but with yearly challenges to Party leaders possible a similar scenario can play out. This danger applies in all 4 Home Nations.

 

Currently with covid the players are the public and political leaders are the managers. The messaging from all political leaders does not IMO any longer command the respect of a large proportion of the public. The situation hasn't been helped by leaders trying to present rules/guidance/advisories (all really nice to do, BUT NOT LAW) as if they were LAW.

High profile breaches of Rules haven't helped including Leicester's Mayor https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8474491/Leicester-mayor-Sir-Peter-Soulsby-71-broke-Covid-rules-visit-girlfriend.html

 

The pubs closing at 22.00 hrs seemingly has no basis in scientific fact as a measure which will curb covid. Instead it seems to have backfired badly as now masses pour onto the streets and search for shops/off-licences to buy more booze then party in a crowd on the street.

 

With early messaging from Government scientific advisers that covid was a mild illness for young people, including young adults, (providing no pre-existing illness) the youngsters have grown tired of restrictions and just want to party.

 

To get a grip on covid early on the message had to be....Get covid and your gonads fall off......which might have got the attention of the young.

The message could have been reinforced by getting Trump to declare the message as 'fake news'.

 

Covid-restriction fatigue was always going to set in and very dangerously it has as Winter approaches. 

 

"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools" is an old saying and too many 'wise men' have worked around covid rules that I and others followed to the letter.

 

I guess it's time to take care, stay safe and just try to get thru Winter and covid. I'll need to get a new bottle of my Jamaican rum (anti-covid is my excuse, but only taken in small doses).

 

So can the 'managers' survive in post until next Summer? Time will tell.

 

 

[jeff oakley]

A lot of good points in this thread but for me the one thing that we lack as a nation is a sense of belonging and being part of the solution.

 

We have seen the four separate areas of the country all do different things which adds to the confusion but unless Boris was to declare that in this case all decisions are to be made in London what could they do to get uniformity. The leaders of the other areas have been looking to do things which undermine Boris first and Foremost and trying to say their expert advice is better than Boris had.

 

As blatters has said the easiest job in politics is being in opposition where you object automatically. If Boris had found a cure, they would say if they were in power their cure would be quicker, cheaper and that his does not take into account the BAME and poorest in society and had we not had many years of austerity we would have avoided it in the first place. 

 

In the meantime we have become a nation riven apart by many things. Tribal politics, age, wealth, creed, sex, gender etc. These difference have been fed by media and social media where the ability to cut and paste and to use hindsight makes even the most stupid appear to some, a font of all knowledge.

 

What we also see is many who were badly affected by lockdown due to various reasons now the most vociferous in wanting others to share their pain and advocate forcing others to do the same as them or worse. Young feel invincible and yet look at how many students now have it and are rebelling against their enforced isolation ignoring they may give it to others who are less able to fend it off.

 

Common sense no longer is good enough as we have at least two generations where large portions have none and that is not down to education, wealth or skin colour, some just have no concept of common sense, hence we need rules.

 

Those rules as Captain listed must also be enforceable and acceptable to the majority. Where we see lockdowns like in the far east that have worked best, not eradicate the virus I hasten to add, they have done so with such ferocity that it is hard to imagine any of the areas accept it. Even today the Middlesbrough Mayor is saying they will not accept the lock down s they do not agree with it and yet the virus and cases there are rising.

 

I feel sorry for Boris as this is something that no one has had to face before and yes they have made some howlers but thank god it wasn't Corbyn in charge as at least there is a will to keep the economy in focus as well

[jim_l]

This virus hasn't lent itself to much in the way of the kind of laboratory science that comes up with precise numbers and percentages, we have little understanding of it yet.  The 'logic' behind closing pubs & clubs early I can see though

 

Transmission of an infectious disease is a function of a) time spent in proximity and b) the extent to which distancing and hygiene rules are followed.    Given that getting drunk increasingly reduces adherence to the rules , then transmission should be positively impacted on both fronts here.   It is also becoming apparent that cases have risen more steeply in the 20 to 29 age group, and, we have seen the early hours footage of our city centres. 

 

Some will argue that people will just go out earlier, but every club owner in the country is telling us this will adversely affect their business?  Both are probably partially true, I don't see many heading into town just to come back at 11pm. 

 

Can I say positively it will have a significant impact, not that simple, but if we only go with what we 'know' at this point, we don't know much. 

 

Jim

 

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

8 hours ago, Blatman said:

Doesn't the Palace of Westminster count as workplace areas though? If there was a bar at my private workplace why would it need to close when it isn't publicly accessible? What about the bar in my house? Not public and I'm not closing it at 10pm 'cos that's when cocktail hour starts. I mean really.

 

It's a workplace. How many people can actually say they have access to a bar at there place of work? It's not private it's a place of work.

 

It's yet another case of "you do as we say while we do something else" which really gets peoples backs up. They obviously twigged it looked terrible as they decided to back track. 

 

3 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

The leaders of the other areas have been looking to do things which undermine Boris first and Foremost and trying to say their expert advice is better than Boris had.

 

Absolutely. I'm not a fan of Sturgeon and her never ending quest for Independence and anti westminster, however I do have to admit (begrudgingly) that the Scottish government have been far more decisive, informative and have actually made efforts to explain the decisions made. Maybe the ongoing daily briefings have helped and credit where credits due shes not shirked the briefings herself. 

 

God I'm almost sounding like an SNP-ist. Time for a drink before the bar closes..........