Democracy----You cannot be serious!

[DonPeffers]

2 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

Very true. 

 

The sad thing is the very people that are are saying leave off the government they are doing the best they can in the circumstances etc would be the first in line calling for heads if it were the opposition in power. 

Well said Steve.  Just look at USA supposedly having a political debate last night between two septuagenarians neither of whom I consider fit for office.

 

Do the Democrats want to lose? Was Obama the last young, bright hope they had?

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, DonPeffers said:

Imagine the (rightful) uproar if Corbyn, Abbott and Ashworth were handling the crisis and we are where we are.

 

That's my point. It doesn't matter which colour the government is the opposition would be opposing just because. I know they have to oppose, I get it. But as I am sure many of us will atest, when we do things for work, we are often encouraged to come up with helpful suggestions when we submit criticism. And again the issue there is pure politics. If the government take and act on suggestions from the opposition there will be just as much uproar.

To his credit I think Boris has tried to keep following the science as much as possible to minimise the effect. A futile effort for sure.

[DonPeffers]

1 hour ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I'm sorry but I disagree. In times like these people are looking for a strong leader who knows their stuff. At least the junior minister had the common sense to hold their hands up to say 'I can't answer that' rather than Boris making it up as he goes along and then backtracking yet again.

 

Boris bumbling and bluffing his way thru reminded me of Diane Abbott's disastrous performance on LBC trying to calculate cost of extra Police.

 

Definitely time for all 4 Home Nations to agree things are way to serious for disunity and agree going forward there will be one UK spokesperson whose job is to know the covid Law plus advisory rules/guidance backwards, including local.

 

Create that one job now as part of not only economic recovery but Government credibility recovery.

[Blatman]

2 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

Definitely time for all 4 Home Nations to agree things are way to serious for disunity and agree going forward there will be one UK spokesperson whose job is to know the covid Law plus advisory rules/guidance backwards, including local.

 

There you go bringing reason and logic to a perfectly good political debate!

 

I can't imagine Nicola Sturgeon ever agreeing to "go along" with Westminster. She'd get it squarely in the neck from her opposition irrespective of if it was the best idea since Brexit... er... hang on...  

OK, best idea since Westfield copied a Caterham and sold it cheap... no... wait... that's not it either...

[Arm]

Do we trust any of the parties, are they all a shambles and some just worse than others . Who is capable of putting it right.  I dont see anyone recommending an alternative. 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

3 minutes ago, Arm said:

Do we trust any of the parties, are they all a shambles and some just worse than others . Who is capable of putting it right.  I dont see anyone recommending an alternative. 

 

That's because there isn't a decent alternative. 

 

I viewed the last election as voting for the least worse. Which is a sad state of affairs. 

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, Arm said:

Do we trust any of the parties, are they all a shambles and some just worse than others . Who is capable of putting it right.  I dont see anyone recommending an alternative. 

 

Trust is interesting. On some level we should intrinsically trust that those who choose to serve do so with at least a modicum of altruism. In a few cases we see altruism give way to some sort of human failing along the way. We all have them and they are largely unavoidable, it's only the size and scope of them that differ and politicians get harangued for even slight indiscretions which I feel is a tad unfair in SOME cases. Yes Boris may want to emulate Churchill. So what? I want to emulate a few people in the hope that their values and behavior rub off on me. But is that "bad"? In and of itself, in my opinion, no. Is it bad for the way he runs the country? Depends on the person one asks. Many may see it as childish or inappropriate in some way but by the same token some may view it as striving to equal the job Churchill did, which was extraordinary. There's no harm in aiming high, other than the risk of failing. If you aim for perfection and "only" get to 80%, some (usually the opposition and opposition leaning academics) will criticise. But surely that "failure" is better than someone who only ever aims for 80% of perfection and reaches 70%? I'll take the "failure" all day long.

 

With regards to dealing with a crisis such as this, we must remember it is unprecedented. We have zero experience to draw on. The science changes often. Information given in good faith today can seem to be an enormous error just a few days later. With this in mind, surely we cannot truly, legitimately say that HM Government are actually doing any of this deliberately, that there is some Machiavellian plan to keep the British people subjugated in some fashion. Nor can we say that they are truly incompetent in THIS specific area of administration.

What the crisis doesn't do is excuse them from making bad decisions elsewhere that are not a part of the crisis, although that is difficult to truly understand. But things like Government pressure being applied (or not) to the TV license fiasco. Are they helping? Hindering? By all means have at them.

Is the NHS being run fundamentally well, crisis notwithstanding? Difficult one to discern Opposition will say no it's failing (NO-ONE ever lost votes with that one), Government will say otherwise. And when government colours swap, so will their positions.

Is Brexit being affected by actual negotiation incompetence? The opposition say yes and of course Government say no.

So who do we "trust"? Depends which way WE vote because ironically trust in the government is an entirely personal judgement. Some will agree with us, some will not. The big question is, does it really matter? I would argue no. Irrespective of who is in government the question of trust and it's answer will always be the same and largely along party lines. And at election time we can make our feelings known, change the government and (usually) within a few weeks we're back on the same merry-go-round...

[tolf]

23 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

Think you should say a minority of people don't follow the rules. Not fair to tar all with the same brush. 

 

Secondly when the rules are getting that complicated that even ministers and Bojo himself are getting tied up in knots and getting it wrong what chance do the rest of us have. 

Err use common sense, which seems to be something severely lacking in quite a large percentage of the population.

lets start with the basics:

 

WEAR A MASK

WASH YOUR HANDS

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Firstly no need to SHOUT 

 

Common sense to one person is not common sense to another. Hence rules. 

 

There are currently numerous rules and restrictions in place that I don't believe have any common sense employed, yet someone high up in government with letters after their name obviously does.

 

 

[Blatman]

10 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

yet someone high up in government with letters after their name obviously does.

 

In government or advising government? 

 

Just because it makes so apparent common sense does not mean the advice is incorrect for the here and now. 

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

And that's exactly my point. You can't just say people should use common sense. 

 

3 minutes ago, Blatman said:

In government or advising government?

 

Does it matter? One leads the other. 

[Blatman]

To most it may not, but the difference between an elected official with no skill or qualification for the department he/she runs compared to an expert scientist who is appropriately qualified but has (in theory) no partisan axe to grind is very important. I do appreciate that this is not always the case but the minute we have serious science and scientists bending to the will of politicians (issuing of grants notwithsanding, and another minefield of pseudo corruption) then we're in real trouble

[Captain Colonial]

Common sense and intelligence do not go hand in hand.  There are plenty of very smart people with the common sense that God gave to a doorknob.  Look at the bright people who believe the moon landings were faked, the royals are lizard people in human suits and 9/11 was a massive government plot.
 

Therefore if you want people to follow the rules voluntarily, those rules have to be:

 

> Clear

> Simple

> Consistent 

> Fair

 

They started off that way six months ago, but have become a mishmash of unclear, ill-delivered and sporadic daily bulletins that have left the public dazed and confused, not to mention angry and distrustful.  This government still hasn’t got the message that the rules must apply equally to all or they mean nothing, starting with Cominic Dummings doing whatever he liked while everyone else was locked down through to an MP not wearing a face mask on a train when it was supposedly compulsory (he said he forget until someone took his photo...) and bars having to close at 10 - except those in Parliament for the MPs which don’t have to close.  People see these things and think “if they’re not following the rules, then why should I?” without considering the possible consequences.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Very well said Scott. 

 

23 minutes ago, Captain Colonial said:

bars having to close at 10 - except those in Parliament for the MPs which don’t have to close.  People see these things and think “if they’re not following the rules, then why should I?” without considering the possible consequences.

 

This is classic, apparently the excuse given? They're staff canteens, not bars. 

[neptune]

I was working at a large container port yesterday. Their canteen has always been a highlight of a visit. Sadly it has been closed, all the staff made redundant and site catering is now a mobile burger van in the open air. Again different rules !!