2020 Speed Series regulations - draft copy

[maurici]

35 minutes ago, stephenh said:

I've just done a tiny bit of research. In 2016, 

In class A2 only one driver competed.

In class B2 3 drivers competed, but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class C 4 drivers competed, 3 of whom did 10 or more events.

In class D only 2 drivers competed, only 1 of whom did 10 or more events.

In class E 4 drivers competed but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class F there were more competitors, but only 1 did 10 or more events.

In class G 3 drivers competed, but only 2 did 10 or more events.

In class H there were more competitors, but only 3 did 10 or more events.

So doesn't that show that there were too many classes?  There were 4 classes in which, in that year, if a driver did a full compliment of 10 or more events you were virtually guaranteed to win your class for the year.And if the classes had remained the same, it would only get worse as we have fewer and fewer competitors taking part.

Well. It also shows that there is way to many events... the average last year says 5.5 car per round... in 37 events and (about) 220 entries... 

 

This number alone shows you that... it doesn't quite really works...

 

 

 

 

[graham frankland]

22 hours ago, Howard said:

Graham, I saw the post and, indeed, commented in it.  I wouldn't say I was at odds.  But I think you're making more of the BEC vs CEC thing than it warrants. 

I didn't say unproductive, I said counterproductive and I was referring to the proposition of separate classes for BECs being at odds with what the SSOT is trying to achieve.

Howard

That is my problem it is not clear to me what the SSOT are trying to achieve here! I have my suspicions but we have no stated strategic objectives from the SSOT

1) Are they targetting increased participation in the SS and how are they going go about achieving it?

2) Are they just hoping to make the competition different for mainly the existing competitors. If so only the ultra fast drivers will benefit at the expense of those who are slower. But the slower drivers are needed to make the first past the post system work?

3) A lot has been said about reducing the cost of competing, apart from the £25 discount for new comers for other drivers the new regs will require many drivers (including my self) to spend money to have an outside chance of getting a reasonable score. If I stay in modified I will most certainly have to consider buying slicks and suitable wheels for them to be mounted on. Maybe a different gearbox as well!

If I go backwards into Road Going it will again be tyres and wheels!

4) Upon close review the reasons for the changes in the note from the SSOT attached to the Regs are either incorrect or motherhood and apple pie statements that do not stand up to close review!

5) With regard to BEC's our Competition Secretary has championed their virtues very clearly in the recent Busa v 2.0 L thread elsewhere on the speed series forum. Hardly an even handed approach considering Terry's position on the SSOT! Just for your understanding if I were to stay in Modified in 2020 I would be in the same class as Terry who in 2019 was 10 secs faster than me at the Blyton outer circuit. I have enjoyed Blyton in previous but why would I go there again on the proposed basis?

6) On the same thread Alex pointed out that the first BEC SS Champion was Andy Rushworth. Is it just a coincidence that it happened when the SS was using First Past the Post Scoring System? I am reliably informed it happened because not only Andy was a good driver but he also was running in a class that contained much slower drivers. So he got his 100 points at a fraction of the pace that was needed in other classes that were  much more competitive? Hence the subsequent change to to the Target Time Scoring System!

7) I think it was Tim Nunn who wanted a seperate class for BEC's a few years ago because he felt they were not being treated fairly against the CEC's because of ACW's car. Cicrumstances have now gone full circle and with First Past the Post scoring them in a seperate class is the best way to aviod more un-neccary controversey! 

 

Glutey 

[graham frankland]

23 hours ago, Howard said:

Further to what Jez has just posted, I was eligible to enter class B this year but was persuaded by Keith and Martin to stay in D.  Had I gone in B I would have finished 4th overall instead of 8th(?). But B was very empty and I had a good scrap with Martin and Keith and enjoyed it more than I would have being in B.

Howard

You may not realise it but you have raised a very important here, why was Class B so empty last year? It was supposed to be one of the entry level classes designed to attract new Novice entrants. Do we know why it did not? as we need to nurture such entrants to keep the Championship alive!

All three of you in Class D were running similar equipment so it is not surprising you had a goog scrap in Class D!

We in Class C (as always) had a great season I managed to win the class by a massive 0.7 of a second! Long Live Target Times!

In a pevious post you stated you had slightly lost interest in the SS may I suggest that after you had won the championship outright you had nowhere else to go to?

Some outright winners either pack up straightaway, move to other championships or take a break from competition. I know you went back to road going tyres which does seem a somewhat a backward step for you?

Perhaps it is now time to consider setting up an Elite Drivers class made up of past SS Champions plus selected other fast drivers who have secured mutiple class winning awards but not the champioship outright!

Initial and subsequent entry criteria would need some more detailed work but it would be another way to seperate the fast and frustrated drivers from the other grades of driver elsewhere in the other classes? 

 

Glutey

[graham frankland]

22 hours ago, maurici said:

Well. It also shows that there is way to many events... the average last year says 5.5 car per round... in 37 events and (about) 220 entries... 

 

This number alone shows you that... it doesn't quite really works...

 

 

 

 

It also shows we have covered a good number of the possible Westfield configurations covered. Which means no technical barrier to entry!

So why are we not attracting more entrants into the SS? Those who compete Westfields in other Championships and those Westield owners who maybe would like a crack at competing!

For me this is a much more important area that needs addressing than changing the scoring system for the benefit for what will be a very small number of the existing SS entrants!

Glutey

[maurici]

On 04/11/2019 at 21:23, graham frankland said:

If you make a list of the 30 + SS entrants we have lost over the last 2 years and put a reason code next to each namber I don't think there will be as many as you perceive would be down to MSA interference and new rules!

 

 

If you want to start your list:

 

The reason i stoped regular competition after my first year was the calculated target time system, witch was random, erratic and from my opinion pointless, along on being the only competitor in my class almost always.

 

The reason you will probably never see me again in a Speed series event, will be because the MSA issues I've suffered, and the very poor treatment i had from L&Dmc, as most of the events I can and would fancy doing are run by them. Being mistreated while in my hobby isn't part of my plan for amusement and enjoyment nor giving them a single extra penny to help them survive... witch is a random and particular reason... as many others you will find if you ask around...

 

 

If you ask individually, every single competitor will have its own reason... and i bet it won't be a majority of people coincident in their reasons...

 

You will not address it even turning the championship regs upside down and finding the perfect solution. You may convince 1 or 2 guys that are on the edge of joining or not... but you won't pull back the 30 ones that have hung the gloves... nor will suddenly attract people with no interest whatsoever in competition.

 

It is maybe time to assume that the numbers are shorter than before in general (because they are all around, not only in the ss) and the championship must change to accommodate the lower number of entrants.

 

Regarding other comments, on the BECs... I didn't stop to analyse in particular till your comments but after reading you I'm thinking now, and i can see who will win the series outright. (Well i actually have 3 possible candidates, depending on how many rounds everyone does)... and I'm sure i won't be too wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[AdamR]

I don't see why a 'backward' step is a bad thing. It's cheaper (cheaper tyres, and you can use them in the wet as well as the dry so you only need one set), you learn to drive better and it's more fun sliding about. Perhaps this mentality is partly why there are / were low entries in A and B in previous seasons? Those with 'lower spec' cars are seen as 'lesser competitors'? I certainly felt that way while driving in Class A. Having a larger number of 'basic spec' cars entering would be in itself I feel be a reasonable carrot for new sprinters, more people to play with. I hope the new structure will do this by having more entries in the 'lowest' class.

 

Like Maurici, I won't do any more MSA events. Reasons for me: the stressful scrutineering (the constant feeling that the scrutineers just want to exercise their power and make you squirm, trying their hardest to find something to pick fault at with your kit or the car), the stupid rules (new lithium battery one as an example. If a car is safe enough for a track day, it's more than safe enough for a sprint with only one car on track!), and the lack of track time.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - just like my groceries, there are mutiple 'shops' I can 'buy' my sprinting at. If my current shop doesn't feel like good value, or I don't enjoy it, i'll start to look elsewhere. Then when I find one that does suit me better, the previous shop will have a heck of a job getting me back, especially if it doesn't make significant changes.

Barny asked me to post the following:

 

"I run in a sprint series outside of WSCC which operates a first past the post scoring system. Generally it works fine. The max score is 100, provided there are sufficient cars in the class (I think its above 5 on the day). Less than 5 cars entered and it's a reducing scale down to 2 cars and 96 points max. This means if you're in a smaller class, you'll never win the overall championship. Sucks if you're in the position, but does motivate those looking for glory to move to the bigger classes. However the scoring for single vehicle on the day needs review. I'll give you a specific example that is playing out across 3 or 4 different classes in that series right now. I am in the situation where I have won my class on the day by a pretty significant margin at each round I've attended (despite having the slowest car by an also significant margin, which supports Maurici's point) with an average score of 95 (thanks to letting Adam double drive and him beating me, otherwise it would be 96 as it's a small class!). However, the scoring system is such that if theres only one car in a class, the maximum points score is 75. My closest rival, who I have  beaten by a minimum of several seconds at each event we've attended together, can win my class simply by not turning up to the last round, forcing me to take a 75 point score. That is not right. I have attended 6 events out of 8, where only 6 count, so I don't get a dropped score. I have been at one event of the 5 so far on my own, so am therefore carrying a 75 point score already. Despite being faster, he can win by taking a tactical decision to just not turn up, which in my book completely ruins the competition.

 

I don't think I should claim 100 points for being there on my own, but a 25 point deficit is way too high. 95 would be sufficient, its below the max score for the class but doesn't penalise me for other people's diary management.  There should be a balance between scoring points because you were there and for being the fastest. I hope the SSOT take this under consideration, alongside the scoring adjustment based on number of cars in class, as I wholeheartedly agree that the fastest driver should be rewarded, not just those who have the most free time."

[Kingster]

19 minutes ago, AdamR said:

sprint series outside of WSCC which operates a first past the post scoring system.

 

this is it I believe...
 

 

A scoring system that allows someone to win a championship by tactically NOT turning up as Barny states in Adams post above is madness!

 

Perhaps bonus points for class records or TT’s for single entrants would even that out?

[maurici]

13 minutes ago, Chris King - Webmaster and Joint North East AO said:

A scoring system that allows someone to win a championship by tactically NOT turning up as Barny states in Adams post above is madness!

 

Is not worst than a scoring system that won't give the prize to the fastest competitor, because is a situation no-one stopped to evaluate.

 

Or one that will give the highest score when 2 slow drivers turn up alone in a track rather than when 15 cars are running in competitive times.... and Several other small issues that any championship will have...

 

There is no perfect scoring system when there is that little entrants and segregation.

 

 

[Kingster]

1 minute ago, maurici said:

There is no perfect scoring system

That probably says it all - hence why I do not envy the SSOT...

[Marto303]

Just picking up on the BEC v CEC debate with the general consensus being there is NO significant difference, can I ask why we had separate BEC classes in both road going and modified at Blyton this year ? Why was this thought necessary and who requested it ? 

 

Whilst I'm here just for clarity I was a member of the SSOT along side Graham at that time, he is correct that a review of scoring systems was carried out and in short our TT system was seen as the fairest for the varied range of Westfields competing in the SS.

 

Graham is also correct that a separate BEC class was requested and supported by the BEC driving members of the SSOT at that time.

 

The thing that concerns me most about these changes is the lack of consultation. I agree that with falling numbers we need to move with the times to try and ensure a future for the SS but surely we should be debating these proposed changes now for the 2021 season rather than having them forced on us without any notice at all.

 

I could go no and on and on about how I feel the new class structure and scoring system will effect me and others but quite honestly I don't feel the SSOT are interested. 

 

Marto

[maurici]

Just a clarification...

 

I don't think BEC vs CEC is irrelevant...

 

A 1000RR blade with exact the same components as my car (aside of the engine and box, of course) will be galaxies faster than me. The car at least...

The driver? that is a different matter and that is why I was saying that if we address the unfairness of the scoring system Is a good step forward.

 

10 minutes ago, Marto303 said:

The thing that concerns me most about these changes is the lack of consultation

Here I do totally agree, and did I care, I wouldn't be happy. Thankfully I don't and I just talk because I can and i'm trying to be objective.

 

I don't think this change came overnight... and its been fully radio silence till after the submission, so i can see why graham sees hidden intentions 🤣

[S2T]

I have been watching this 'discussion' develop as a newcomer this season. Whilst I have several thoughts on the comments above I am refraining from challenging.

May I make a suggestion?

We should first of all accept the SSOT no doubt have thrashed through various scenarios and arrived at this proposal in an attempt to arrest the decline of the Series, not for the betterment of themselves.

At the 'Blyton weekend' in 2020 we have a meeting to discuss/ put forward proposals for 2021 for the SSOT to examine or work up. At that point we would also have the benefit of 1/2 a season to see how the 2020 proposals are working through. Between Blyton and publication of 2021 regs the SSOT could possibly provide an update by way of say Facebook live or some other web based discussion facility if required

There is no simple answer when we have such a variety of cars 

[maurici]

5 hours ago, S2T said:

At the 'Blyton weekend' in 2020 we have a meeting to discuss/ put forward proposals for 2021 for the SSOT to examine or work up. At that point we would also have the benefit of 1/2 a season to see how the 2020 proposals are working through

 

To have an open forum discussion to try to draw line from where to start... to be informed with at least one season of anticipation if drastic changes were coming, to have an open consultation with votes for approval... were topics requested last year, (and I'm pretty sure we could recover this).

 

Instead:

The regulations have been kept secret till they have been submitted, no open discussion has happened, very little of the past suggested measures have been taken, and the whole rule book has been turned over without any consultation, agreement or at least warning.

 

 

While I can believe they may have our best interest in their minds, I can assure you that their willing on hearing out your opinion is ZERO, and sadly the facts reflect that. so don't waste your dialogue intentions for the Speed Series.

 

The only way that appears to work is when 6 or 7 people say straight away, I'm not entering if is keept like this. One would beleave that after the general upsetment happened last year where minor changes were introduced with no prior notice, altering the plans of several competitors, the approach taken would have been different this year.

 

Sadly the human being can hit the same stone several times without learning to avoid it.

 

While I think is a great success to get rid of the target time system and an unification of the several classes to have a sense of competition, the whole way its been done its been shady to say the least.

[cphelps]

Maurici, if you will no longer compete in the speed series for other reasons, then these changes have no impact on you. I for one applaud the effort that the SSOT have put in to change the championship and try to make it a more fun and enticing championship. In my opinion, if I was to read this thread as a potential competitor I would see all the bickering and go elsewhere. We should be focussing on making people feel as welcome as possible within the rules we have, not highlighting any negatives and being disrespectful of the hard work that others have put in on our behalf. I am very much looking forward to spending another season competing with friends and seeing where these new rules lead, regardless of where they leave my positition in the championship.

[Andy Banks]

A more formal Club response is coming but I feel a personal need to reply to Charlotte; Charlotte, thank you, a breath of fresh air and what I'm hopeful everyone is thinking (but not saying en masse). It's so easy to complain, sadly less easy to praise and I wholeheartedly agree with you.