Terry Everall Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 You have to remember how late you can brake with a BEC compared to the much heavier CEC and also the speed you can carry through bends and tight track sections. I would never go back to a CEC even though I have owned a few very very quick and powerful CECs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrzej Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I made some research (on internet) and found for Megabusa this dimmensions : Left-hand side passenger compartment: 420mm wide Right-hand side passenger compartment: 435mm wide So, reagrding the width for driver is similar to SEiW. Ok, in summary it looks like the main advantages (in lap time, not telling about fun of driving higher revving engine ) of Megabusa are from: 1. lighter engine+transmission 2. better gear ratios and sequential - faster gear changes (but I am not so sure about that because of more torque on lower revs in car engine) 3. maybe little lighter chasis (we have no info regarding chasis - alone weight differences). As for the weight considerations : Zetec 115kg (Duratec lighter) + gearbox 35kg (M75, Type 9 even more, but found some sequentials like Elite LS200 - 24kg, but in summary lets say 35kg , so BEC 80kg vs 150kg ) . It is like additionala weight of passenger. Once I have read that one person weight can make 1-2 seconds faster lap (1-2 min lap ) . BUT ! - it was with the same power. (the same car, and car engined Westfield build for track has rather more power than bike engined (50-70hp more) . Yes, I am aware of later braking and more speed in corner in lighter car. And, we have to consider that for heavy drivers is propably better to have some power/torue reserve, the same for additional items like full cage, fire extinguishing system, wider tyres. And, looking at topic tittle "hill climb and sprinst" - I am not sure, but I imagine that those are rather short courses , and correct me if I am wrong - 3-6 at competiton ? more ? so the gearboxes are not as much exposed to difficult conditions as lets say timeattack formula of competition, where is about 100-150 km of pure track driving on one day ? I am back to the rigidity subcject, because when starting to interest in kitcars, I have read a lot , that bike gearboxes are made to 200-300 kg totl vehicle + driver, not to 500-550kg (which is closer to regular light Megabusa + driver weight I assume) . Can You, BEC users confirm / denied that gearbox durability issues ? or it that a myth ? A lot of variables As for the driver skills and car setting skliss , for sure those are the most important factors . On mine first trackday with Westfield I baerly achived1,3 g of combined acceleration. On latest - almost 1,6g . Just by getting used to Westfield, its brakes esspecialy, lowering tyre presures and very liitle changes in camber. Hoping for more in next seasson (BTW what are the combined or lateral 'g' in Megabusa) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 There is no conclusive technical answer to the BEC v CEC choice it seems to me it is very much a personal choice! Once you have made that choice every owner does the most they can to make their car the the best around and are rightly proud of what they achieve! What ever you drive the ability of the driver and making "tactical" changes event by event are very much the order of the day! Correct me if I am am wrong but I think Barney Rubble is the only BEC champion of the SS over 22 years! Whatever you drive it is absolutely GREAT when it all comes together! Happy decision making! but have FUN! Graham/Glutey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Gaskin Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, graham frankland said: Correct me if I am am wrong but I think Barney Rubble is the only BEC champion of the SS over 22 years! Andy Rushworth won the Championship twice in his Blackbird powered car (which is now Terry's car). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Everall Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 This year the first three cars in the Overall Championship are John Hoyle CEC Matt Turner BEC Terry Everall BEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robhume Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hope nobody minds me adding my experience regarding bike engine powered cars and I've had a few. Mallock, Jedi, Van Diemen and now I have a Stuart Taylor Loco R1. I bought the ST R1 car in August and took it to a hill climb, it went about 100 yds from the start and the gearbox locked changing from first to second resulting in a spin. When the gearbox was stripped it was found that all of the teeth had broken off first gear. The car is using a 3.5 axle ratio, (English axle with lsd) and whilst I used about 7k revs off the line, the car still struggled. On my previous cars I have always used the equivalent of 4.2 or 4.5 ratios, so I'm wondering if the ratio needs to be changed on the R1 powered car, as I feel perhaps the gearbox is being asked to take too much torque off the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 hours ago, Alex Gaskin said: Andy Rushworth won the Championship twice in his Blackbird powered car (which is now Terry's car). Alex Thanks for the correction that was before my time! Glutey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 13 hours ago, Terry Everall - WSCC Competition Secretary said: This year the first three cars in the Overall Championship are John Hoyle CEC Matt Turner BEC Terry Everall BEC Only when the J Class runners are removed from the list? Perhaps for the record you should publish the Westfield only overall results list please! Glutey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Graham, J class cars aren't eligible for the overall Speed Series championship, so Terry's info. is correct. I've never driven a BEC, but one advantage which may have been touched on in earlier posts, but is worth emphasising is that for given suspension layout and setup the lighter engined car will have better handling and roadholding. Also, I believe I am correct that the bike engined chassis are slightly stiffer in the front half of the chassis compared to the standard CEC because they have an additional diagonal brace across the top of the engine area, which cannot be fitted to a CEC, and that will also help the handling/roadholding as by modern standards a 7 type chassis is quite flexible particularly forward of the cockpit as I understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Each car type has their advantages and disadvantages: CEC - generally a little heavier and less suited to tight twisty circuits but on longer faster circuits can perform well. BEC - generally a little lighter and more suited to tight twisty circuits that require acceleration punch. However they are limited on gearing as even with a Sierra 3.14 diff and 22 inch tyres, they are limited to 125mph hence can sometimes be disadvantaged at longer faster circuits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBW Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Great read this! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The CEC vs BEC debate never gets old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Aspden Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 BEC - they are value for money/performance CEC - My prefered choice as the engine is designed for a car not a bike. If buying a BEC Honda has the edge for me as it is proven more reliable than others and is better bang/buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 6 hours ago, stephenh said: Graham, J class cars aren't eligible for the overall Speed Series championship, so Terry's info. is correct. I've never driven a BEC, but one advantage which may have been touched on in earlier posts, but is worth emphasising is that for given suspension layout and setup the lighter engined car will have better handling and roadholding. Also, I believe I am correct that the bike engined chassis are slightly stiffer in the front half of the chassis compared to the standard CEC because they have an additional diagonal brace across the top of the engine area, which cannot be fitted to a CEC, and that will also help the handling/roadholding as by modern standards a 7 type chassis is quite flexible particularly forward of the cockpit as I understand it. Hi Stephen I know J class cars can't win the championship but they are listed in the overall positions list so based on that publication Terry's statement is not correct. Hence for clarity I suggested a overall listing that did not include J class cars only and then everything would be fine and Dandy! I do have an interest in a Westfield only list as I would move up to 6th overall which is much more important that BEC's it's a LIFETIME BEST! Glutey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Gaskin Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @graham frankland Terry's statement is correct: -John 1st in a Vauxhall C20XE powered Westfield -Matt 2nd in a Yamaha R1 powered Westfield -Terry 3rd in a Honda CBR1000rr powered Westfield However I do agree that the overall table has got the class J cars in, as well as their own table at the bottom, maybe @Tigger could fix it if he isn't too busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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