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[nice_guy]

8 hours ago, Ian Tolfree (tolf) - North London AO said:

 

The problem is that no-one actually has seen the full text of the Brexit deal.

 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf

 

Quite a long read.

[Lyonspride]

13 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

Ok I'll bite. The whole EU referendum vote basically asked us a question with no real answers. No real explanations or scenarios or consequences of what would likely happen either way. Even the leader of the leave campaign has been proven time and time again that he lied repeatedly making false claims. Said buffoon has now been promoted for being a liar.

 

So yes I think it's the 100% right thing to do to ask the question again but with an actual real choice and let the minions decide. 

 

Leave with this/no deal with these conditions and results.

 

Or 

 

Stay with the EU.

 

But in all of this the thing that boils my p*** the most. This is the most critical point in this country's recent times with a ridiculous amount of work to do. And our elected representatives take a 5 week holiday. Seriously.

I think for me the problems stems from remainers trying to brush off the result as "oh those lower class plebs didn't know what they were voting for", but in truth those voting for brexit were from every walk of life.

The vote was totally unprecedented in UK history,  and for the first time in god knows how long, the people on the lowest incomes, living in the poorest areas, with the highest crime rates, felt they could finally have a say. Millions of people who simply never vote, because they've always felt it pointless.

We have so much cultural disparity between the classes in this country, we have people living in near poverty, working 3 jobs, earning barely enough to live, and then we have the people who live fully insulated from those hardships. The former mostly voted leave, the later mostly voted remain. Most people who are relatively happy with their lot, or afraid to lose it, they won't vote for change. Which in turn has been the basis for "project fear.

I don't know about the 5 week thing, it seems a bit stupid under the circumstances. I don't think it would make a difference anyway, I think brexit deals will just get blocked over and over again, the MP doing this get a win either way, either Brexit doesn't happen or they get to gloat "told you so". What's clear is they don't give a damn about this country.

 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

8 minutes ago, Lyonspride said:

The vote was totally unprecedented in UK history,  and for the first time in god knows how long, the people on the lowest incomes, living in the poorest areas, with the highest crime rates, felt they could finally have a say. Millions of people who simply never vote, because they've always felt it pointless.

 

I agree in part. 

 

But it's like walking into a car showroom and being asked would you like car A or car B. Both are hidden behind walls. Could  be a 2 seater sports car or a 7 seat family bus. 

 

How can you make a choice when you cant see what your getting? 

[pistonbroke]

45 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I agree in part. 

 

But it's like walking into a car showroom and being asked would you like car A or car B. Both are hidden behind walls. Could  be a 2 seater sports car or a 7 seat family bus. 

 

How can you make a choice when you cant see what your getting? 

You cant , but we know what we've already got , and if we don't like it we have the power to vote for change , which most of us did .

Thats  called democracy . 

Should we give up that right  ?

In some other Countries people would die for what we take for granted  

[Lyonspride]

20 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I agree in part. 

 

But it's like walking into a car showroom and being asked would you like car A or car B. Both are hidden behind walls. Could  be a 2 seater sports car or a 7 seat family bus. 

 

How can you make a choice when you cant see what your getting? 

I think nobody knew what they were getting, the focus was put on what we'd be losing and this tactic ultimately fell apart as every thing presented as a negative was proven either to be false or overly dramatised. I don't think the establishment ever thought that leave would gain enough momentum, they thought the working class man wouldn't bother to vote, all they had to do was threaten the social status of anyone who likes to call themselves "middle class", (that thing anyone can buy with enough debt).
 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

4 minutes ago, pistonbroke said:

You cant , but we know what we've already got , and if we don't like it we have the power to vote for change , which most of us did .

Thats  called democracy . 

Should we give up that right  ?

In some other Countries people would die for what we take for granted  

 

No we shouldn't give up the right at all. 

 

But what if the vote for change ends up being worse than what we've already got?  What if car A is the exact same car as the one you've got except another 50k miles on it and rusty.

 

I voted remain based on the complete lack of clarity with regards to leaving, but can accept the democratic result. What I cant accept is the way we're careering towards a no deal exit which is going to damage this country (short term definitly, long term who knows.) Even a lot of politicians who are leavers are desperately trying to stop a no deal. 

 

But the sad fact is we have the buffoon in charge who just wants to make a name for himself. He wants to be the name down In history who led us marching out of the EU. Regardless of the consequences. 

 

Just like he bailed after the leavers won after the referendum, I'd put a cheeky tenner on boris bailing within 6 months of a no deal brexit.

[DonPeffers]

4 hours ago, Trevturtle said:

 

A pretty girl but a stupid sign when EU controls many laws, tariffs, who we can do trade deals with,  pay over the odds for EU farmed produce (so when it's cheaper from outside the EU, but within the EU farmers growing season, the EU ensures a tariff is applied to make sure their farmers aren't disadvantaged).

 

Democracy as a precious thing, and relatively young in the UK. Youngsters are likely to imagine democracy has existed for many hundreds of years and cannot imagine its disappearance.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/16/the-peterloo-massacre-what-was-it-and-what-did-it-mean  today is the 200th anniversary of The Peterloo massacre. On 16 August 1819, up to 60,000 working class people from the towns and villages of what is now Greater Manchester marched to St Peter’s Field in central Manchester to demand political representation at a time when only wealthy landowners could vote. 

 

Britain did not become a democracy until the Representation of the People Acts of 1918 and 1928 that gave the vote to all men and women over the age of 21.

[DonPeffers]

2 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I agree in part. 

 

But it's like walking into a car showroom and being asked would you like car A or car B. Both are hidden behind walls. Could  be a 2 seater sports car or a 7 seat family bus. 

 

How can you make a choice when you cant see what your getting? 

The future will evolve in an uncertain manner whether we are in or out.

 

In all likelihood if we stay in the EU block will further expand with plans to invite Macedonia, Albania and Ukraine. Eventually all member countries will be required to use the euro and power will be centralised.

 

With UK Parliament thrice rejecting conclusively Mrs May's EU Withdrawal proposal (I don't call it an agreement)-- (I have scan read the 585 page document) and with MPs having set a new exit date of 31 October 2019, that becomes the default and do remember it is the EU who have stated repeatedly that the EU deal is NOT UP FOR RENEGOTIATION.

[jeff oakley]

The simple problem is that we were given a vote that should never have happened. Every time our politicians have gone to the EU and asked for change it was met with a firm no. Cameron went and they told him to go away even though they knew we would be offered a vote.

 

The vote was then held, with the question agreed by all of the parties which was leave or stay there was no  with or without deal etc. Now if this was important then why did those involved not question that then? They all agreed to uphold that decision and to me that is the biggest single issue now. How can anyone have faith in the democratic process if when faced with an electoral result no one accepts it. 

 

Both side ran their campaigns, both lied but for me remain lost because all they did was run a negative campaign of fear. We would see riots in the streets, food shortages, etc.etc. whereas the leave ran one where they over egged the benefits of leaving but gave a vision that was more appealing to the majority and that is important to remember.

 

As someone else wrote, this wasn't an age thing, many young voted leave, those who have seen their area suffer with an influx of unproductive EU people appearing to get priority over housing and getting money they have not contributed to. As in all things some of that is true but worryingly the far right leapt on this and now have someone to blame for all their ills.

 

I have lived a long time and have had an interest in politics for years but I have never seen a spectacle like this. Comments about Boris being a liar are true, as is every politician, with one or two notable exceptions. Certainly the leaders of the last 25 years have all lied to us about everything but never has parliament ever behaved with such contempt for the electorate.

 

To call leavers thick and stupid is to try to shift the blame, the people who were stupid were the EU for not recognising the mistrust and unhappiness with them from across the EU, as witnessed by the rise of the far right over there and parties who would never get seats in the past being elected and even forming government,s and our politicians who agreed a simple yes no vote.

 

We are now in very dangerous place where if the democratic vote is disregarded how will people ever trust or see the point in having a vote ever again. Endless delay's are not helping us and the reality now to me is we either leave with a deal that allows us to have control fully or we remain inside the EU but we have a commitment to from Brussels to reform the EU so we do not continue to keep adding none contributing countries looking for a handout.

 

The EU was a trading block which morphed into something no one voted for and whilst there are undoubted benefits to being in there are downsides. We can argue which gives the best for the UK but what is not good is where we are now and we need to change this position that we are in.

 

 

 

[Mighty Mart]

7 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

I agree in part. 

 

But it's like walking into a car showroom and being asked would you like car A or car B. Both are hidden behind walls. Could  be a 2 seater sports car or a 7 seat family bus. 

 

How can you make a choice when you cant see what your getting? 

 

Totally agree with Lionsprides post and ref' the quote I've highlighted....a lot of people who voted to leave in the quoted scenario above haven't got a car in the first place, so either is a better option....

For those of us lucky enough to have a car or three, then the above quote makes sense, but we are in a minority it would seem....

As much as the vote was for us to leave, it was just as much a protest against a Government (past Governments also) and how they have lost touch with the common man.

The fact the Government has then refused to accept the leave vote is the biggest irony?

Mart.

[Steve (sdh2903)]

It's been said a few times now on this thread that the government are refusing to accept the result of the vote, I'm confused because as far as the government (well boris) is concerned we're leaving 31/10 come hell or high water. Most people, except the most hardcore one eyed brexiteers, can agree this is not the way to go. 

 

So who has refused to accept the result of the vote?

 

Trying to negotiate an exit deal isn't refusing to accept the vote. It's just the right and sensible thing to do. And we're failing miserably.

[DonPeffers]

11 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

It's been said a few times now on this thread that the government are refusing to accept the result of the vote, I'm confused because as far as the government (well boris) is concerned we're leaving 31/10 come hell or high water. Most people, except the most hardcore one eyed brexiteers, can agree this is not the way to go. 

 

So who has refused to accept the result of the vote?

 

Trying to negotiate an exit deal isn't refusing to accept the vote. It's just the right and sensible thing to do. And we're failing miserably.

 

Question---So who has refused to accept the result of the vote?

 

Answer--The EU.

 

The EU cooked up a Remainer Brexit with Mrs May (with no UK unilateral right to leave backstop) and Parliament said NO three times to May's deal. In fact the Parliament can, so far,  agree on nothing.

 

I reckon you are correct Steve in that nobody really wants a No Deal but Remainer MPs have emboldened the EU to take a hardline stance. Germany doesn't really want to lose over 100,000 jobs by stopping selling us loads of exports.

 

In 7 days time in will be 3 years and 2 months since the Referendum (a long while back i jokingly called it a Neverendum not knowing how true that would become).

 

As the months roll on our so-called divorce bill will be reducing because the time period to 7 year EU Budget end date 31 Dec 2020 is getting ever shorter.

 

The vote on the ballot paper stated  Remain  or  Leave---no mention of good or bad or no deal.  Ultimately there will be some sort of deal very likely very shortly after we have left as trade will necessarily continue.

 

As some of my asthma (and related conditions) medication comes from Poland I do have a vested interest in keeping trade flowing and my breathing continuing especially as I am due soon to get new dampers via our Damperman.

 

After over 3 years of failed negotiations and EU insisting the 'withdrawal' agreement CANNOT be reopened how should we proceed?

[Steve (sdh2903)]

8 minutes ago, DonPeffers said:

After over 3 years of failed negotiations and EU insisting the 'withdrawal' agreement CANNOT be reopened how should we proceed?

 

Get everyone back off their extended holidays. Get people around the table with sensible solutions and negotiate. Preferably with the gagged buffoon locked in a cupboard somewhere.

 

I too have a vested interest in that my professional license which allows me to work and certify across Europe will revert to a UK license only with a no deal. In my company a lot of backroom staff are all ready losing jobs as the company is moving a lot of the legislative departments to Germany because they cant afford to be caught out by a no deal. More money being taken out of the country and  fed back to the EU (which ironically is what the brexiteers are trying to stop).

 

And this is happening across my industry not just where I work with many people being encouraged/told to switch to Irish/french/german licenses.

[DonPeffers]

                   It seems the World is going crazy looking at the following:-

 

09/07/2019   https://moneyweek.com/510539/should-you-be-worried-about-deutsche-bank/    "Should you be worried about Deutsche Bank?"  Financial problems at Germany's biggest bank?

 

13 Aug 2019   https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/aug/13/danish-bank-launches-worlds-first-negative-interest-rate-mortgage    "Danish bank launches world’s first negative interest rate mortgage.  Jyske Bank will effectively pay borrowers 0.5% a year to take out a loan."  

 

"The mortgage is possible because Denmark, as well as Sweden and Switzerland, has seen rates in money markets drop to levels that turn banking upside-down.

Høegh said Jyske Bank is able to go into money markets and borrow from institutional investors at a negative rate, and is simply passing this on to its customers.

But the flipside is that savers will see nothing paid in interest on their deposits – and may also suffer as they go negative."

 

"In Switzerland, the bank UBS last week told its wealthy clients that it would introduce a charge of 0.6% a year if they deposited more than €500,000."   So clients pay interest to leave money in the bank and get back less than they paid in.

 

Apr 26, 2019   https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1119288/Germany-news-brexit-eurozone-eu-latest-brexit-update  "EU heading for economic bomb EXPLOSION, economist urges UK to be ‘far away'"

 

"A GERMAN economist has urged the UK to be “far, far away” when the EU’s economic “bomb explodes” as he warned the eurozone is heading for financial catastrophe.

Dr Markus Krall threw his support behind Britain’s decision to unshackle itself from the EU as he blasted the Union as a “bureaucratic protectionist system”. The German banker said the European Central Bank has created a “big and pretty powerful monetary bomb” that the UK is lucky to avoid." 

 

“The monetary bomb the ECB has created for us is unfortunately pretty big and pretty powerful, also because they have been working on it for a long time.

“We have witnessed a low and then zero interest rate policy for 12 years and this policy has massively eroded our banking system in the Eurozone.”

 

“Therefore those who are for a free market economy will be weakened further by Britain’s exit, but of course I am very sympathetic towards the British in terms of them wanting a more free order for themselves.”

Dr Krall said in the past two decades the EU had moved away more and more from the ideas of its founders.

He added: “Their ideas were free trade, to take down borders within Europe for trade, and definitely not protectionism.

But they have now more and more turned to a bureaucratic protectionist system, have become more and more inbound."

 

14 June 2018   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ecb-money-printing-european-central-bank-end-date-a8398576.html    "The European Central Bank is set to bring the curtain down on its €2.4 trillion (£2.1 trillion) asset purchase programme in December, it said in a statement on Thursday." 

 Recent talk of ECB restarting Euro money printing program.

 

Will printing more money solve economic problems?

 

 

       

 

[jeff oakley]

Steve, I don't think anyone wants to have no deal but the problem seems to be that the deal on offer made no one happy. The EU is playing a very high stake game of poker.

 

None of the leaders want us to leave, as the UK has been good for the EU, however they know they cannot afford to allow our leaving on good terms trade wise, otherwise others will undoubtedly follow suit.

 

As I have been told, everything was basically agreed by all until they threw in the Irish backstop which they knew would be so unacceptable to the DUP and many others as it would tie the UK into EU regulations etc. If that was removed everything would work, but it was never intended to work hence we are at an impasse.

 

I am no fan of Boris but he didn't bail out the first time round, he was stabbed in the back by Grove who then let May in, who had either no chance or intention of negotiating a deal hence her failing to secure one.

 

The EU could accept your qualifications, they did before but have chosen not to accept them now, why? If you were skilled before your are now.

 

Even now there is so much negative reporting and sensationalism that even if there was another vote it is unlikely the result would change and the people would be no better informed than before when there is so much opposite opinions or able to make an informed decision so many mention.

 

My brother lives in France and their politicians are basically still saying that we will be forced to vote again and if we vote to stay this time around that every concession we have the other members will vote to remove. It is so sad we are at this point.

 

What is for certain Kenneth Clarke or Harriet Harmon are not the answer but I am not sure even if we locked everyone in a room they would still disagree