2018 Regs and Explainations

[Paul Morcom]

7 minutes ago, Paul Aspden said:

On another note, item 1.6.2 implies that there will no longer be ties for maximum scores in each class on each event. I read this as the maximum score will, on occasions where there are soft targets or outstanding drives, exceed 101 points, with the potential for the every class to have maximum scores greater than 101 in the event that two or more class competitors beat the target. Am I correct? If so, Mr Cleaver will need to do all his runs to potentially maximise his scores!

 

Score are still capped to 101 and as you say there is still the chance that two or more competitors end up with 1010 (experts) or 808 (novices) and if this does occur at the end of the year then 1.6.2 comes into play to rank the drivers who max'd their scores.

You are right it will make drivers who get to 101 early in a competition to continue to compete through the day to maximise their potential score if in the end a tie does occur. The tie is at end of championship level, not used at an individual event during the year.

[Paul Aspden]

29 minutes ago, Paul Morcom said:

Score are still capped to 101 and as you say there is still the chance that two or more competitors end up with 1010 (experts) or 808 (novices) and if this does occur at the end of the year then 1.6.2 comes into play to rank the drivers who max'd their scores.

You are right it will make drivers who get to 101 early in a competition to continue to compete through the day to maximise their potential score if in the end a tie does occur. The tie is at end of championship level, not used at an individual event during the year.

Paul, I think the regs read poorly in this area as they imply this will apply to each class at every event where more than one class competitor exceeds the target time,  not to the overall championship, could they be clarified? Maybe reading "in the event of a tie for the overall championship"

[Paul Morcom]

Thanks for your feedback Paul; 1.6.2 would also be used in the event of a class tie.

A good point and I will pick up with John before submitted to MSA.

Cheer....Paul@John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary

[Mark (smokey mow)]

2 hours ago, Paul Morcom said:

Using a 2% adjustment on C & D targets is NOT done to "protect the old guard" it has been set on the basis of the little amount of data we have. @AdamR@maurici  and @Mark (smokey mow)if you have extensive data on list 1A/B tyres and synchro gearboxes that you can share with SSOT then please do pass onto Terry Everall.

Happy to help @Paul Morcom &  @terry everall  

 

2010 

Castle Combe 189.09 (wet) 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R)

Silverstone Stowe 122.89 Toyo 1A tyres (Toyo T1R)

Curborough (single lap) 38.09 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R)

Lydden1 94.52 Toyo 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R)

Lydden2 93.40 1A tyres (Toyo T1R)

Brands Hatch 102.47 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

 

2011

Silverstone Stowe 119.51 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

Snetterton 100 107.84 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

Brands Hatch 102.97 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

 

2012

Crystal Palace 41.43 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

 

2013

Castle Combe 178.47 (snow AM but drying track PM) 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

Crystal Palace 41.43 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

 

2014

Crystal Palace 37.89 (wet, shortened circuit) 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R)

 

All events were completed with a full windscreen, carpets, comfy seats and a standard fuel tank half filled (Car weight 582kg), 1600cc engine, 129.3bhp (flywheel) @6609 rpm

 

[maurici]

@Paul Morcom All the data I can have from my car, being double drived and driven by myself is available for the SSOT already, I don´t have anymore info. In fact I have to come to the  clubs webpage every time I need info to compare my results. Sorry I can´t help anymore. 

It is true that we haven´t seen the TT yet. But the simple fact that the A and B tt are calculated instead of using real data where available, is a problem for me. And if is not real data, leave the system work by itself. New class, let the car stablish the times and in a few years you should have a balanced times there. Unfortunately there is not only tyres between classes, so place a 2-3% because 1b tyres are less sticky isn´t enought.

 

4 hours ago, BCF said:

My car is roadgoing and I enjoy driving it to our meets and on my local roads. It meets the class regs perfectly.  I think it comes down to this - if you want to come out and play, have fun, meet great people and see how you/your car compares, this class structure works perfectly. If you want to win, plan to develop both car and driver which will take time and money to be a top performer in any class. But don't ask for the regs to be changed to meet your car - that puts way too much complication on the SSOT, the MSA and the sport. There has to come a point at which you make a decision, do I want to win, or do I want to just go out and play? But it's not fair to demand the regs get changed to be more suitable to "your" car.

I have to dissagree here, despite I´m one of the "cheaters" to use a car that fits in the category instead of a pure roadgoing car.

The only thing that differs from your car and mine from a race car, is that they have some sort of lighting, and we haven´t thrown enought money on it to go to dogboxes, and stupidly expensive electronics and so...

But we use race engines, fully stripped down cars with cage. No passanger seat (yes, I do use a foam too, but that doesn´t means it has passenger seat), and despite they are usable for the road, and trully enjoyable to drive, you must agree that your car, mines, or even Adam´s one(a bit on the edge) are quite far of the average "roadgoing" cars in the club.... Probably that pushes away more novice with trully roadgoing cars. Cars like Johns (Panda) Smeg´s or Mark´s dont have a single chance against any of our cars "made on purpose" to fit the category, leave alone try to be anywhere near to the TT. 

If roadgoing classes were more attractive for people with a road car and a RAC bar (and thats it) problably it would pull much more people to it. Your case isn´t that relevant, as you was actually in class D, but im sure you get my point "against" your statement. 

Big boys and average competitors are already there, fully commited and with very healthy entry lists... To really ask for the support of the average driver/owner of the club, I think the term roadoging should be re-defined (despite that would mean that my car don´t ever fit the regs anymore). In fact, you and me being novices, have been in several occasions above the experts (that will hurt) with non roadgoing cars, weather dependant, of course... that would not happen AT ALL with trully roadgoing car with its 600kg, soaked carpets, windscreen 100hp less and chunky seats.

 

[B.RAD]

As usual Maurici we agree on everything, but with a slightly different perspective. Our cars ARE roadgoing cars, they have tax, MOT and insurance and get road use. What you're arguing here is to draw a distinction between TYPES of roadgoing cars. 

How do you do that exactly? Based on carpet, screen, fuel tank size? Set a minimum weight? Then how do you measure it and prove it at each event? My point is that the regs allow everyone to find a class that fits for them, and then to choose how competitive they want to be. I'm just saying go with it, but don't complain because you can't win if your car's a bit heavier or whatever. If you want to win, it takes practice and investment. Adam R is proof that skill is far more important than specification.

Don't forget I started in class B on R888 with a crossflow engine and full screen, half cage etc, then made a load of car changes because I wanted to win and then only moved up to D because of reg changes that forced the move because of the tyres I'd invested in a year before being no longer allowed in B. 

[Onliest Smeg David]

10 hours ago, syman84 said:

...Last season 2017 as Terry said there had been 20% increase in entrants and i hope the speed series grows even more...

BUT

41 Westfields competed in 2016 and 43 in 2017. Some expert classes have got stronger, but With just 3 Novices in 1 class competing for the 2017 Novice Championship and there being 5 in 2016.

No 20% increase there!!!

And that is what concerns me --- the strength of competition in future years. (not about me! Barny.)

Hence my initial comments regarding attracting newbies into 'roadgoing'

Unobtainable TTs matter less, IF a level playing field across all classes.

The SS team have done an admirable job within a very difficult situation. Without them there would be no SS - so MANY MANY THANKS.

[B.RAD]

I agree Dave, attracting new members has always got to be a priority, but in my personal opinion that doesn't need the classes or TT's to be messed about with - if you want to have a go, it IS easy to get started. What we should maybe get better at is exposure and more 'practice' events to draw people in, much like the great Shelsley event that is happening this year.  I know Martin got started as a result of an introduction to sprinting event and my personal route in was through the drift event combined with loads of advice/encouragement from my area friends.  If we could do anything differently to encourage members to have a go it would be running 1-2 of these intro to Speed Series events a year and letting people have a go to catch the bug.

Don't get me wrong, I do get the point about feeling accomplishment from getting near to or beating the TT and that was my main concern a couple of years ago, but my opinion has changed and now for me it is about personal challenge and having good fun on the day, knowing that whatever comes out points or time wise, you've done your best and had a blast. Slightly separate point but worth mentioning.

[maurici]

14 hours ago, BCF said:

As usual Maurici we agree on everything, but with a slightly different perspective. Our cars ARE roadgoing cars, they have tax, MOT and insurance and get road use. What you're arguing here is to draw a distinction between TYPES of roadgoing cars. 

How do you do that exactly? Based on carpet, screen, fuel tank size? Set a minimum weight? Then how do you measure it and prove it at each event? My point is that the regs allow everyone to find a class that fits for them, and then to choose how competitive they want to be. I'm just saying go with it, but don't complain because you can't win if your car's a bit heavier or whatever. If you want to win, it takes practice and investment. Adam R is proof that skill is far more important than specification.

Don't forget I started in class B on R888 with a crossflow engine and full screen, half cage etc, then made a load of car changes because I wanted to win and then only moved up to D because of reg changes that forced the move because of the tyres I'd invested in a year before being no longer allowed in B. 

And here I  agree 100% with you. The line isn't easy to draw and I don't really know how should be done... but that doesn't means that shouldn't be re-drawn with some minimums to comply to be considered a roadgoing westfield.

 

14 hours ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

The SS team have done an admirable job within a very difficult situation. Without them there would be no SS - so MANY MANY THANKS.

Indeed, and that's out of question.

And no matter how good they do it, allways is going to be a moron moaning for something (like myself).

The current changes I think are overally good:

-I like to see the novice guys in the main leaderboard. They will have their own trophy anyway but we are all toguether, that helps as people have said, to run the numbers.

-I really like that there is some sort of applied solutions to avoid situations like the ones seen this year where the fastest guy out there doesn't wins...

But I don't like to see classes with calculated target times... even where actual data is available (maybe not much data, but some) as the performance difference isn't the same in fast//slow tracks, difference are not only tyres....

And I Dont Really like the SS award reduction  only to Novices. The ammount of events your are doing, has to do with money investment//free time to commit, not about the experiecne. This fact, pulls me out of any motivation... and I already know a few of others also with the same feeling. And... it looks to me also that 8 events for the novice championship vs 6 events for the SS award, will mean a reduction of novices competing for the overall champ.

 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

The first post contains a link to a document that states in its title 'without track changes' yet it does contain them

Target times will naturally level if left alone and remain set by real competitors instead of calculated. Soft times can only be exploited once and wont exist for enough venues for the same class for someone to make beyond fair advantage overall

[woodman]

All be thankful that you havn't got a dreadful scoring system like the HSA one.

I like our system

Ours rewards a fast driver no matter how many are in the class .

 

[maurici]

37 minutes ago, John said:

Target times will naturally level if left alone and remain set by real competitors instead of calculated. Soft times can only be exploited once and wont exist for enough venues for the same class for someone to make beyond fair advantage overall

That Is what I've tried to explain with my s***ty english. Thanks john!

[Marto303]

On 10/12/2017 at 13:42, Paul Morcom said:

One set of target times to fit all (novices and experts); target times may be the wrong name for them but we all know how they are used. In the main TTs are only there for the scoring system to work, they also do recognise the class records wherever possible. It does not matter what they are as long as they provide a levelish playing field across the classes and venues (there is no perfect scoring system, if there was then all championships would use the one perfect scoring system). We have a large amount of data to work for in all classes except A and B. SSOT have reviewed the little data we have on these two classes but as such it is not enough (with a small cross-section of drivers and many weather and types of course etc) to be able to sensibly use this data for establishing targets.

The TTs scoring systems works perfectly well for Class and Overall scoring alike, it makes no difference. Competitors need to take the emotion away from wanting a target that is achievable and also a novice target that would enable a novice to win the overall championship (that is hardly a level playing field). IMHO a novice is really unlikely to be skilled and experienced enough to win the overall championship unless they had extensive experience in some other form of motorsport and then that would bring into question their novice status. 

Using a 2% adjustment on C & D targets is NOT done to "protect the old guard" it has been set on the basis of the little amount of data we have. @AdamR@maurici  and @Mark (smokey mow)if you have extensive data on list 1A/B tyres and synchro gearboxes that you can share with SSOT then please do pass onto Terry Everall.

One set of targets makes absolutely no difference to the position in class and overall, whether a novice or expert, it simplifies the scoring and the results website. The championship is run by volunteers and keeping things as simple as possible is the right thing to do. There is no other championship in the UK that scores experts and novices differently or tries to level the competition across classes.

Many elements of our championship are included to make it attractive to competitors new to the sport compared to other championships. We have a reduced number of qualifying events to count and the Sprint Challenge exclusively for novices. There are also overall and class novice awards.

Then there is the unparalleled support given to novices in our championship by the more experienced competitors.

Hmm, have to disagree here @Paul Morcom as the perception of a softer TT for novices, especially in their first season is a great encouragement to them. Surely encouraging novices as the life blood of the Series is worth the little extra effort that “ No other Championship offers “ after all we do it for the J classes! 

Just to be clear I have no problem with J having it’s own scoring system but not sure it should take priority over a Westfield class. 

I’m also very disappointed to see one of my favourite events slashed from our calendar. Why and what do the ssot hope to achieve by this ? My first ever Speed Series event was at very wet Wiscombe Park in 2014, I was terrified but with the help of my fellow WSCC competitors I had a brilliant weekend.  I have been back every year since along with a few different WSCC competitors each time and significantly improved on my times, gutted I can’t now put all that time, money and effort to good use. 

[Paul Morcom]

11 hours ago, Marto303 said:

Hmm, have to disagree here @Paul Morcom as the perception of a softer TT for novices, especially in their first season is a great encouragement to them. Surely encouraging novices as the life blood of the Series is worth the little extra effort that “ No other Championship offers “ after all we do it for the J classes! 

Just to be clear I have no problem with J having it’s own scoring system but not sure it should take priority over a Westfield class. 

Hi Martin,

I understand your view on softer targets for novices. We did consider this when the decision was made but our focus was on the total package offered to Novices within the regs, not one single rule.  Regs alone will not attract novices, there are many other considerations and most are in the hands of the novice themselves and no amount of regulatory considerations would change this fact.

In my first year (a novice and like most, not done any form of motorsport previously and had done 3 track day to get to know the car) my first decision was whether I wanted to and if I  could afford to enter the Speed Series - I didn't even look at the Regs. A friend in the village had a good friend who did compete in the SS and arranged a dinner for us to meet. That was Martin Hepworth, he became a good friend and mentor but sadly is no longer with us. Martin helped me ensure my car was eligible for the class and up to MSA regs.

I have a competitive streak but the start of my season my focus was about getting up the hill or round the course in one piece and having fun. I was hooked after the first event! As the season progressed I started to look further forward and compare my times to the experts with the same class of car to see how I was doing and how much I needed to improve. Anyway I am sure it was comparisons with other drivers, in particular the experts, that gave me the drive and ambition to go faster.

As the season progressed it emerged that I was a contender for the Novice Championship! So a bit more focus on which events I could do, in the end I won the Novice Championship on my last run of the last event of the season (Sunday of the October Ty Croes event).

Was an amazing first year, better than I could have ever imagined in terms of friendships made, fun in the paddock and on the track and the end result in winning the Novice championship. But I will say again it was nothing to do with the regulations it was all to do with the people in the WSCC SS and their help and my comparison to experts to see what was needed to be done on the track that made is such a memorable year.

I am not sure why you mention the J Classes - if it is because there is a separate scoring system for them then yes that's right and the only reason for that is that the standard class target approach did not work for J classes - it was not a level playing field within the J Classes, so a different method of devising targets was introduced. The Westfield classes (A to H) work well with the scoring system and one set of targets is all that is needed to provide a consistent and level playing field across those classes.  J classes definitely do not take priority over the Westfield classes, the J classes are not eligible for the overall championship awards. It is easy to score and takes very little extra time to manage the results at events where J classes attend. Why do you mention this, am I missing something here?

Paul

[woodman]

I think the Biggest problem for potential novices are the MSA regulations , not our own regs.

Things like ROPS, tyres, hans etc - All good stuff but very expensive if you only want to dip your toe in or just do a few local events a year.

We used to have quite a few , with very much standard road cars , who would do Curborough for instance. They cannot do this anymore

Like Paul , when I started the class structure  and points system were irrelevant.

But we generally didn't have to cope with novices starting out in such hi spec cars- they used to use std crossflow/zetecs etc - Where as cars such as Mauricis could easily win D outright.