Norman Verona Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Mark, I'm not sure of your legal position if all you do is negotiate a price and members pay direct. Do you have a barristers written opinion on this? However, I would respectively suggest you're not giving this a chance. All you need do is send something like this to the committee (I trust there will be a nominated person dealing with this) "I have negotiated a price for polished ali cam covers for Duratecs/Zetecs with Mikes Engineering Company. They will make these for £120 each. They need a minimum of 10 orders. Members will pay directly. Can this be approved outside the Trade Members scheme. Thank you" Firstly you should have an answer within 24 hours. If it's in the affirmative (as I would expect the above scenario to be) then you've had to spend 30 seconds and wait up to 24 hours for a go ahead. Hardly show stopping. However, if the response is in the negative I would hope a full explanation would be forthcoming. For example: "Mark, sorry we can't approve this BB as Johns Castings Ltd will do same for £72 and need no minimum orders" Why not give the BB scheme a chance to be successful or fail. I'm sure the committee will respond positively if it has problems. As for advertising on the forum for mates this is the same as post #119. If you held a poll of the membership on the subject it would probably come down near 50/50. On one side it's "why should they get free advertising when we have to be members" on the other "Why should we be denied the chance to buy their car/parts". I have made my points on both subjects and am happy to let it run and review it in, say, six months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanoecosse Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I'm yet another one in the "leave the member group buys alone" camp, I note the £120 fee may be waived for an "exceptional" group buy, but what exactly defines an "exceptional" group buy? As an example, what if a member decided to knock out a low volume batch (say 10 or 15) of machined gear k**bs on his laithe or a dozen sets of carbon covers for the roll bar cut outs in a boot box (as a member did in the past). These are pretty low cost items and likely being done for very little profit and primarily for the benefit of members. Will these guys be expected to stump up the ridiculous £120 fee for something that may well just be a one off and will earn them less than £120 back? Another example, say a member happens to work for Panasonic or Sony and can arrange a 30% discount on new TV for "friends & family". The manufacturer isn't going to be interested in paying a fee to "join the club". So, does the member pay the fee himself and then have to pass the cost onto members who want to buy a TV? or is the idea not allowed to even get off the ground under the new rules? A definite rethink is needed on the Group buys in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Stop assuming exceptional has only one meaning would be a start. If you substitute "exceptional" for "one off" it should make more sense... For example, I want(ed) to organise a BB of steering wheels a while back. We were getting a roughy 10% discount, I was not benefitting except for geting the same discount. This is an exceptional offer as I'll only be doing it (did do it) once. It's not an exceptional offer becuase of price or the type of part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 That person does indeed become a distributor (or as good as). He also carries the legal responsibility as the retailer. Surely until proven otherwise in an appropriate crucible, the terms should be "MAY indeed become a distributor" and "MAY carry the legal responsibility"... they MAY NOT of course, but who's up for testing this sort of civil law for real? Not me, hence we use caveats and sensible practices when dealing with members of the public. If it all went **** up the distinction of that member of the public also being a fellow WSCC member would carry zero weight if the authorities were to get involved. Norms bulk buys were exceptional in that they were for high value and involved many wheels turning. I would have been staggered if he didn't get legal opinion before getting in too deep. Norm if you have the written opinion from your brief it would be a well handy thing to have a shufty at... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chazpowerslide Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Just for the sake of clarity, as you say: Bulk buys will ONLY be able to be started and run directly by the company itself, not by members. There are many reasons for this, all of them to do with numerous past difficulties on previous bulk buys. These companies, if they want to offer a bulk buy to the club, can only do so on the boardroom if they are a Trader or Sponsor. If you read my previous post, there are many benefits and it is NOT a program charging £120 for one bulk buy. Since this morning, we have already had four well-known eligible and appropriate companies contact us to express strong interest and ask for details. In responce to Scott's comment in bold and underlined I posted below. Exactly how many member organised bulk buys have gone down in flames on here? How many have ended in acromony, abuse and fallout that has directly brought the club into disrepute/financial cost? Where is the history of abuse, failure and issues that has prompted the change? I agree that we should establish traders for an enhanced membership fee and for them to be free to be able to offer goods and services via the trader section to the membership. That way the likes of Steve D and Mick can sell their products and services without infringing the commercial posting rules if they become trade members. It will enhance the clud's offering to the members which was the origional idea. Why on earth this should extended to bulk buys organised by members is beyond me. Why rule against something that is not and has not been an issue for us in the past? Chaz. Edited to correct spelling...... I then asked the three questions above, they are still unanswered. In my time as a Moderator I never dealt with/saw any evidence of bulk buys going bad neither did I see any evidence of it in the records. Why has this been given a reason for change, this appears to be erroneous. Sorry Mark but your reply does not answer the three questions in my last post. If there was a history of bulk buys going down in flames with a detrimental effect on the club then I can appreciate the need to stop it and thus the potential the need for change. As far as I am aware there is no history. I can also understand the reason for "traders" is to let the small businesses and members with goods and services to offer benefit the club without infringing on our commercial post rules. This seems on the face of it a sensible change to allow members to offer goods and services to other members for a fee of £120 a year thus benefiting the trader and member. We have had many issues with commercial posts in the past, this is a good way of dealing with it. AFAIUI any member can become a trader for a membership fee of £120 they do not have be introduced to trader status via a member organised bulk buy. They can then offer goods and services. Am I understanding this correctly? If this is the case I'm all for it as it gives the members added value in obtaining competitively priced goods and services and would help the likes of those members who want to sell their goods and services to to the members. Win, Win. If a member wishes to organise a a bulk buy via a company not yet involved with the WSCC he introduces them as a "trader" they pay up £120 for a 12 month membership and run the bulk buy on behalf of the member and then their own bulk buys and services thereafter. If the committee see it as fit they may allow a trader free trade membership for a limited time to run a bulk buy but only if its a "knockout idea" Special bulk buys (if allowed by the committee) are subjected to criteria and published by the club (if so does the trader pay the trader membership fee?) Is this correct? If so some of the concerns are valid and need to be listened to. I have read committee posts a number of times. Asking me to re-read it again is not answering the questions that I and others may have. There are still questions that not only I but others would like answered which is why the questions are being asked. I'm not asking for the sake of being a cantankerous right royal pain in the A*** or pick things apart for the sake of an argument. Chaz. I then asked the two questions above, neither have been answered. Further potential issues then arise. If the answer to the first question above is "no" (which I suspect) then it effectively locks out Members like Mickmade and others like him who wish to provide goods and services to other members as a trader. This reduces the offering of deals ect to club members. It looks like the committee have directly and deliberatly locked out members from trader status to prevent members who they feel have flouted/gotten around the commercial post rules in the past. It also means that owners of small automotive businesses (or businesses of benifit to the WSCC membership) who would pay £120 for trade membership cannot do so unless they are introduced via a bulk buy which that may not wish to do. Again this reduces the offering to members and protects the commercial interests of those involved with the club already. With reference to the second question, how will it fit with traders who have paid £120 for the initial (not important) bulk buy when others with great bulk buys will (at the descretion of the committee) be allowed 3 months grace on payment/not have to pay. Surely this is a double standard? If the committee is pre-vetting bulk buys and putting hurdles in the way via un-nessasary controls it looks like the offering to members is being compromised by the clubs other commersial interests. The reasons given for the change are as follows. Better deal for the members This does not appear to be the case on what has been decieded. It looks like some of the posts from the committee members have been done on the fly and that the detail work and consideration of the implications have not been fully thought through before presentation to the members. Legal reasons In UK law the sale of goods act provides protection for both the buyer and vendor, there is no risk that the WSCC or a bulk buy organiser can face legal action when individulas who participate in the bulk buy pay the vendor. The contract of sale is between them not the WSCC or the bulk buy organiser. Why the WSCC committee feel the need to promote extra protection for their members over and above current UK legislation by forcing bulk buys to be organised via trader status on the boardrooms for a fee of £120 is beyond me. Implying that this is a nessasary to protect members is a little rich. Previous issues with bulk buys. Non have highlighted and ASAICS in the search function none have been recorded. The need for change. Yes, there is a need for change, I had hoped that any solution put forward would be all inclusive, stop the issues with commercial posts and benifit the majority of members. Instead it seems that this is not the case and the club's offering to it's members is being un-nessasarily controlled. Then to compound matters further we flush out ALL mon paid up members down the tubes after 30 days whatever their good history and postive contribuiton to the WSCC for the sake of forcing membership and controlling a few troublesome forum users. We also still refuse to let individuals who are not members to adverstis their cars on the WSCC. It makes no sence to me. I'm honestly not posting this stuff up to be a pain in the A***. If I did not care passionatly about the WSCC I would not bother. Chaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 If the answer to the first question above is "no" (which I suspect) then it effectively locks out Members like Mickmade and others like him who wish to provide goods and services to other members as a trader. No it doesn't. It either costs Mickmade 120 quid for *unlimited* numbers of products and offers, or he gets a link as a supplier of bits placed on the links page which we can all point to if anyone askes "Where can I get a Mickmade part?" And of course if Mickmade has some extras or unsold parts he may wish to offer them as a "one off" bulk buy. OK, so the 120 quid may hurt. Don't pay it. It is NOT compulsory. Do a bulk buy by asking permission. Having to ask permission of the folks who run this place has never been required before but things change. But it costs nowt and sorts out once and for all permissions, privileges and expectations whilst giving the moderators control and a set of rules by which to make judgements and at the same time preventing what could easily turn in to a free-for-all of traders disguising bulk buys which is pretty simple to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Chaz, in answer to your first question see the thread and discussion in the AO area, any member can pay £120 and be a trade member. Thus MM or anyone else can upgrade their standard membership to offer goods and services for the benifit of other members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 We also still refuse to let individuals who are not members to adverstis their cars on the WSCC.It makes no sence to me. If an owner has shown no interest in contributing financially to the running of the club whist they own a westfield, what reason is there to allow them the benifit using our facility to sell it? The option exits that a paying member can provide a link to any advert in the new links to other sites area so it's not as though us members would be missing out on any potential bargains. As for the other argument (possibly not from yourself) that WSCC membership is £30 and you can advertise om pistionheads for £10, that £30 will not only allow you 12 months to sell your car, but also the contents of your garage. If after selling the car, you decide you wont be visiting the forum any more then the facility exists that you can gift your unused days of membership to the buyer of your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Then to compound matters further we flush out ALL mon paid up members down the tubes after 30 days whatever their good history and postive contribuiton to the WSCC for the sake of forcing membership and controlling a few troublesome forum users. We also still refuse to let individuals who are not members to adverstis their cars on the WSCC. It makes no sence to me. I'm honestly not posting this stuff up to be a pain in the A***. If I did not care passionatly about the WSCC I would not bother. Chaz. it may be useful to understand why Blatchat chose to go members onlyhttp://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=82454 Personally i feel that what the WSCC is proposing is a good compromise between becomming completely members only, whilst ensuring that the unpaid volunteers that run this site and the club are adequately protected should the worst happen. Whist there may not have been any Legal claims against the club that i'm aware of, thats not to say that there wouldnt be, and therefore i appreciate that the commitee need to take steps so as to protect themselves and the membership to ensure that there is still a club for us in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Then to compound matters further we flush out ALL mon paid up members down the tubes after 30 days whatever their good history and postive contribuiton to the WSCC for the sake of forcing membership and controlling a few troublesome forum users. Do you take your own booze to the pub or do you buy from the bar? it's the members who pay for this club to exist at all. I don't mind paying for a taster. I also don't mind paying for the *very* few exceptional non members who genuinely add value to the membership. But it should not be a free for all for everything all the time. Membership MUST carry significant benefit over non membership. There must be value, perceived or real. I personaly think the new rules offer too much to non members, especially in the For Sale sections, but I don't get a vote on any of that until the AGM where us members have our say if we can be bothered to turn up. DO NOT get me started on that subject! Implying that this is a nessasary to protect members is a little rich. TBH I'd never considered product liability when organising a bulk buy. But having an offer from a body offering to remove my risk for free just for the asking is something I WANT, whether I NEED it or not is irrelevant. We also still refuse to let individuals who are not members to adverstis their cars on the WSCC.It makes no sence to me. Make sperfect sense to me. How soon before the For Sale section ends up being a poor mans Autotrader? What if it was posted on... lets say Pistonheads... that *anyone* can advertise their car for sale for free on the WSCC for as long as they want? OK it seems unlilkely. It's unlikely I'd contract Polio but I still get vaccinated... As I've said I think the new rules give too much freedom to non members in our For Sale areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted December 1, 2012 Author Share Posted December 1, 2012 Chaz, I sometimes think your trying to just have an argument, it would be nice to feel some level of support, and I think the best approach is to see how this actually works then to change if necessary. However I know that the people who comment in this thread have the club at the hearts and this is why people argue the issues with such passion. Anyone at the committee meeting you would have seen the process that these decisions go through at the final yes/no stage and the many hours of deliberation that goes into this looking at it from all angles. However in the interests of trying to put the case across let me please answer the questions you pose: AFAIUI any member can become a trader for a membership fee of £120 they do not have be introduced to trader status via a member organised bulk buy. They can then offer goods and services. Am I understanding this correctly? Yes. I think this is quite clear in my posts ? This will allow many more people to engage on the site to the benefit of all. Larger companies will be encouraged to take the steps from trade member to full sponsor, which we envisage many may want to do for the extra exposure. If a member wishes to organise a a bulk buy via a company not yet involved with the WSCC he introduces them as a "trader" they pay up £120 for a 12 month membership and run the bulk buy on behalf of the member and then their own bulk buys and services thereafter. If the committee see it as fit they may allow a trader free trade membership for a limited time to run a bulk buy but only if its a "knockout idea" Special bulk buys (if allowed by the committee) are subjected to criteria and published by the club (if so does the trader pay the trader membership fee?) Is this correct? Yes. Your concerns are noted and have been thrashed through by the committee. There have been issues with previous bulk buys that have been discussed by the committee. In addition there are real and present issues with allowing a free for all on bulk buys. As I have stressed our preferred mechanism isto engage with companies to obtain member discounts. However there are still ways in which bulk buys may continue with little difference. I think if we had had a load of bulk buys this year it would be a major issue. We havent. I get the distinct feeling your picking on one issue, making a big thing out of it. Mark tells us he has taken a few hours of legal advice on this subject. This must mean that there are valid concerns, and that he was concerned. I would like to see a written copy of that advice,as in my experience legal advice is never black and white, and if it is any good it will take an educated risk to the outcome of any choice or direction. Mark - can you tell us more about this ? (of course it could be that mark was embellishing this point somewhat as that tends to be what happens on these sort of discussions and I think that is what I am being accused of ?) We also still refuse to let individuals who are not members to adverstis their cars on the WSCC. Please read the proposals again. I had hoped that any solution put forward would be all inclusive, stop the issues with commercial posts and benifit the majority of members Please read the proposals again. This was a driving factor behind trade memberships. Win Win. Right - hopefully about to get on a damn delayed flight back into the UK now. I'll be back later tonight so we can discuss some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreigM Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I have some experience in the legal question of a member heading up a BB. That person does indeed become a distributor (or as good as). He also carries the legal responsibility as the retailer. If you buy a new Ford from your local dealer and you consider it not fit for purpose it's the dealer you take to court not Ford. Likewise, if something goes wrong with goods purchased on a BB it's you the organiser of the BB who will be responsible and, possibly end up in court facing substantial damages. I hear you muttering that no other member would do that to you. But wait. It may not be the member, it may be his insurers. It's real. If you don't believe me go seek a legal opinion. It'll only cost about £250. Mine's free, I am in the fortunate position to have a commerical lawyer in my household and sit across from one in the office and both say this is not the case. Volume does not make the seller a distributor and does not change the relationship between buyer and seller. In your example you are paying a legal entity which is the dealer, not an individual. It is the legal status of the seller which dictates the buyers rights. There's no concept in law of "as good as" - you are either a legally registered company or not. The only place where volume would become an issue would be when HMRC got interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark (smokey mow) Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 There is a recent bulk buy running at the moment where the monies and distribution are being handled by the WSCC member and not the company supplying/ making the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhc Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 As some of you may already know my other postings go under the name of M******E. The reason for posting under mhc is that I am still under (censorship or pre moderation) when using that name, otherwise I would post under M******E. The reason the fee of £120 is being introduced is to allow (hobbyist I do like that term) members like myself to sell and advertise products that may be of use to fellow members. This is much more reasonable than the sponsership fee of £600 that I was first asked to pay. I have no problems with the £120 , therefore I will pay it. But I also hope that anyone with a tagline on their postings which is in any shape or form an advert also pays the £120. This will go some way to eash the income problem that this club seems to have. Regarding the queries over the bulk buys, they have always worked in the past to the advantage of the members and I see no reason for that not to continue in its present form. So please do not let the dead hand of regulation and sponser demands halt these schemes. Lets us all not loose sight of the fact that this club exists from its very earlist days to help its members in the pursuit of their love affair with their cars. On a very different point, how long does life membership last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveD Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 where do i pay my £120 i have a few bulk buys ready to go , no seriously i do maybe we should instead of being disruptive and obstructive support the decissions by the comittee ,im sure they are for the best which i truley believe they are , and if things dont work out after a few months they will be man enough to change things/juggle things around to suit ,no one wants the club to fail especially the comitee im sure they have done there homework and have given this serious thought .as for the members that the advertising/trader thing effects which i am one of ,i have no problem paying for the privilige , lets be positive and give it a go ,life is to short to support freeloaders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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