DavidC Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 Hmmm.....this is really quite difficult ain't it. Right, a VX-XE or Zetec is gonna need bell housings, £450s worth of Throttle Bodies or Webbers, DCOE Manifold and (realistically) a reprogrammable ECU with loom. The Bike Engines come with the carbs, no bell housings are reqd, BUT what's the deal with the longer propshaft/reversing boxes and shorter propshafts, and of course the wiring loom. The cost of the reversing box can pretty much be matched with the cost of TBs or Webbers for the XE and Zetec. How do you wire in a bike ECU and Engine loom to the Westie loom? Or do I go to someone like Lightening Looms and get a bespoke one made up? DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 zetec engines probably won't need a bell housing as your more than likely have ford box anyway,vx xe will however and if you go vx power make sure its a type 9 box as the mt75 has a none detachable bellhousing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Yupright Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 The Bike Engines come with the carbs, no bell housings are reqd, BUT what's the deal with the longer propshaft/reversing boxes and shorter propshafts, and of course the wiring loom. The cost of the reversing box can pretty much be matched with the cost of TBs or Webbers for the XE and Zetec. How do you wire in a bike ECU and Engine loom to the Westie loom? Or do I go to someone like Lightening Looms and get a bespoke one made up? You dont need reverse, you're better off without a reverse box for reliability reasons. (as well as cost, weight etc) They're not hard to push... You can using a split propshaft, where you bolt a centre bearing in where the reverse box goes. This gives much smoother drive. I've added electric reverse to mine, but thats just a nicety. Loads of people just push... Modifying the bike loom is easy. The westy loom feeds 12v, a starter feed and an earth to the bike loom and the bike loom returns a neutral signal and a tacho feed. You just untape the bike loom and remove the circuits you dont need any more, like the lights etc. Its a doddle. Stick with the blade, especially if on a tight budget. The performance/pound is stunning. Cheers, Al (lectric reversed fireblade engined westy) http://cdslash.rm-rfstar.org/orange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted June 2, 2002 Author Share Posted June 2, 2002 Well, I've just been reading thru your site, saw....nope HEARD the vid of the engine starting 1st time, and I'm really really tempted by the Blade engine now. Were there any issues you had in the build that you wouldn't have had with a Car Engine? What is this 'Cushdrive' you keep mentioning on your site? That large 'reverseing' gear that you've put on the output shaft of the engine, was that put there for when you decided to fit a electric reverse? Is your electric reverse just a starter motor and where did you get that gear from (hmm...that could be a slighty dodgy question asked elsewhere)? I take it that when the starter motor used for reverse is powered, the shaft 'pops' out to mesh with the reverse gear, and then retracts once it is stopped? Regarding the Cooling, is there a cheap rad that I could use with the blade engine (like the Polo rad for the XE) instead of buying one from Westfield? Was the oil sump baffle supplied by Westfield or fabricated by yourself, and is it entirely necessay? The CBR600 F3, FX and FY engines in our SAE cars (see my avatar pic) haven't used a sump baffle except the one that we tried to dry sump (it went pop, twice) I think I've probably answered my 1st few question just by asking the last ones. Oh well. Cheers DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Blatman - Your link to the pic of my brothers car was a bit sus'. Here it is again Widebody car, standard tunnel VX installation and Mr Blatmans widebody MT75 tunnel install Also, our clutch is indeed cable operated. In fact ours is a perfect example of a nice boggo Vx install done how it should be. It has the SBD bolts but other than that it is completely standard on the inside. Bolted to it are Dell'orto 45 carbs and electronic ignition. Not an ecu in sight Dead simple for even me to understand. Power is in the 185bhp sort of range and that should be pretty rock soild considering the abuse we plan to give it (it's mid conversion to all out trackday car). Plenty of torque, plenty of go and should the disire for more umph take us, plenty of scope for more power. A simple cam upgrade should see us pass 200bhp. My twopenneth on engine choice is this. Personally I like torque and power without to much sacrifice in weight which is why I'm not bothered for big V8's or bike engines. Once again this is just my personal choice, I really like V8's and the revvy/sequential action of BEC's does appeal, it's just not for me. Turbo's are a big no-no in cars like these and as they're so light they really don't need them. Finally, I really hate the K-series as it's gutless and you have to tune the balls off it to get decent power. Even then, given lots of track abuse, their reliability is suspect. So what would I go for? The cheapest, easiest and IMO best choice for you is a nice 2.0 Vx XE on carbs. It's a cracking engine. Next would be a 2.0 Zetec on throttle bodies, they're a bit more limited on tuning but at 200bhp they go very, very well. As Blatman says, Nick M has fitted the 1.6 Vx and it looks very interesting, awaiting updates with interest (particulaly on the Tran-X gearbox and I fancy putting one of them in our Vx). Then we go into uncharted territory, I think one of the engines that will become increasingly popular is the 2.1 Duratec, 180bhp in bog standard form. Raceline are doing them at the minute and will give you anything up to 285bhp. It's apparently not much heavier than a K and is very strong much in the way that a Vx is. I have only ever seen one fitted and this was in a c******m at Stoneliegh Click me. Fitted in nicely though. Finally we have what would be my choice: The Honda S2000. Delivering 240bhp in totally standard form (the only thing different on there is an MBE ecu IIRC, other than that it's untouched including using the clutch and goreous 6 speed gearbox from the S2000). It is fast in a massive way, it revs to 9,200 and is happily producing 500bhp/ton in this stripped out car. The beauty of this is R500+ performance delivered from a completely standard engine not a highly strung race engine that needs frequent rebuilds. Although should tuning be your bag, a set of Spoon cams and throttle bodies should get you to 300bhp. This *ahem* development car (it's not very pretty) has been ritually abused by the BaT staff on lots of trackdays including a European trip where it was hammered around Catalunya and Pau Arnos in the seering heat and it hasn't missed a beat. I'm currently at the stage of NEEDING an S2000 engined Westie The bigest downside is that the engines are difficult to get hold of and very expensive when you do A well, all food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damianc Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Saw the s2000 beastie at Elvington yesterday. It is utterly stonking!!! There was a 'busa engined fury on slicks which didn't have a hope in getting near it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 The Orange Fury was a 900cc Fireblade. Nice thing and still bl**** quick. I was there in the Purple Westie and I also went out in Nutter and can report that it was waaay quicker than mine (150+bhp/ton more! ). Handling is now absolutely awesome. Rich Breland (the builder) had kind of lost interest in it but since the handling revelation (too embarrasing to say here), his interest has been re-kindled. He's going to tart it up proper now by fitting the other carbon seat he has, swapping out the nasty ali paneling and cleaning up and painting the bodywork. It'll never be a show car, but then it wasn't built for that and it's performance speaks for itself. Was yours the twin engined Westie? Sounded awesome and looked gorgeous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidC Posted June 2, 2002 Author Share Posted June 2, 2002 juansolo, how much of the original clutch were you able to carry over to the Westie, or did you need a complete now clutch to suit the Type 9? DC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Mine is a Cosworth with an AP clutch and type 9 with Quiafe bits in it. I didn't do it so don't know what was involved. If you're on about Nutter it has the standard clutch gearbox and bellhousing from an S2000. It's a big b******* so needs a widebody car with an MT75 tunnel to fit it all in. I believe some creative welding was also involved to get it in and to make the engine mounts. But all done, it's a very neat install but very much not a plug an play jobbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damianc Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Mines a (fading) red zetec. I was just passing elvington (I like the twisty bits on the way) and happened to see se7ens so popped in. The engine in Nutter was really crammed in and quite far forward. May make it tail happy or was that the exuberant driving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Yupright Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Well, I've just been reading thru your site, saw....nope HEARD the vid of the engine starting 1st time, and I'm really really tempted by the Blade engine now. Were there any issues you had in the build that you wouldn't have had with a Car Engine? What is this 'Cushdrive' you keep mentioning on your site? That large 'reverseing' gear that you've put on the output shaft of the engine, was that put there for when you decided to fit a electric reverse? Is your electric reverse just a starter motor and where did you get that gear from (hmm...that could be a slighty dodgy question asked elsewhere)? I take it that when the starter motor used for reverse is powered, the shaft 'pops' out to mesh with the reverse gear, and then retracts once it is stopped? Regarding the Cooling, is there a cheap rad that I could use with the blade engine (like the Polo rad for the XE) instead of buying one from Westfield? Was the oil sump baffle supplied by Westfield or fabricated by yourself, and is it entirely necessay? The CBR600 F3, FX and FY engines in our SAE cars (see my avatar pic) haven't used a sump baffle except the one that we tried to dry sump (it went pop, twice) I think I've probably answered my 1st few question just by asking the last ones. Oh well. Cheers DC >Were there any issues you had in the build that you wouldn't >have had with a Car Engine? Ummmm. Probably, but then there are probably issues you'd have with a car engine that you wouldnt have with a bike engine! Cant think of anything specific! Wouldnt say building my blade was any harder/easier than building my CVH. Blade engine is easier to handle!! >What is this 'Cushdrive' you keep mentioning on your site? Its a lump of rubber that forms one of the joints in the propshaft. It absorbs clangs and protects the gearbox a bit. It was designed for the c******m Blackbird... Nice... >That large 'reverseing' gear that you've put on the output >shaft of the engine, was that put there for when you >decided to fit a electric reverse? Yep, I was always going to fit electric reverse, but it never made it onto the car until after the car was SVA'ed and done a few miles. >Is your electric reverse just a starter motor and where did >you get that gear from (hmm...that could be a slighty dodgy >question asked elsewhere)? > take it that when the starter motor used for reverse is >owered, the shaft 'pops' out to mesh with the reverse gear, >nd then retracts once it is stopped? The ring gear is from Blackbird Motorsport. They had a batch made up for the c******m Blackbirds they build. I took this and adapted the installation for a fireblade. It meant finding a different motor, cos they mount the motor rear of the ring gear, and mine is mounted forward, so my motor had to rotate the opposite direction. Its a subaru legacy reduction drive starter. Yep, it pops out and engages with the ring gear, then pops back in. >cooling Mine is a polo radiator! <40quid I think they are. Or if you can get the bike breaker to throw in the bike radiator they work very well and a very light. On my blackbird I used the bike rad. >sump baffle. Yep, its from Westfield, and probably worth getting from them cos its only 25quid. I think its worth fitting, although I do know people who race without them. You could make one just by drawing around a sump gasket on a sheet of ali and then cutting holes for the pickup and the relief valve. Any other questions!? You should see the reverse in operation. Its most humourous... Cheers, Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 The engine in Nutter was really crammed in and quite far forward. May make it tail happy or was that the exuberant driving I suspect that is exuberant driving. At Elvington, tyre destruction is the order of the day. FWIW, balance seemed much like mine; little to no understeer with oversteer available on demand. Just how I like it On track you tend to drive very differently. Yup the engine is quite a way forward due to the massive bellhousing. Nutter is still in development as it were. Rich may make changes there, or he may not. For me, it's definately at the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' stage and it just requires tarting up. Engine location may be a bit forward but it just goes so well. As I say, I really like the balance of it and it's the only IRS car that's come close to the setup I've got on my live axle car, in fact it's better. It's probably why I like it so much as most IRS cars I've been in tend to be a bit snappy whereas I prefer it to be more progressive IYSWIM... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Damianc - Ah, it's just dawned on me you mean the Vx. When you said mine I automatically thought you meant the Cossie as the Vx is actually my brother's car. Though once again, we bought the car complete and are just altering it to our specification so I don't know. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Juan Thanks for the proper links If (when) you get round to looking at the clutch actuation/parts, I'd be interested to know what it uses, 'cos I've never seen a bog standard Westfield Vx in bits before Conversely, if I get mine apart first, I'll make a list of what's what, and post it up. As for the need for an ECU/throttle bodies on a Vx or a Zetec, that'll only be required if the engine is newer than July (or is it August?) 1995 (I think). If you fit a pre '95 engine, you'll pass on 45's, 'cos the emissions regs are totally different. I reckon a pre 95 Vx with type 9 box is as close to the optimum as you can get WRT out of the box reliability, good starting horsepower, future upgrades, and SVA compliance. There are plenty of experts around, and lots of parts, if you include Westfield Sports Cars Ltd, as well as c******m Cars Ltd as potential spares suppliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juansolo Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 I'll be going down to the garage today. I won't be taking it to bits for some time but I will take the camera down and take some snappage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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