timd Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 besides, a BSc(Eng) won't do you any good applying for a job as a designer for *anything*. You won't be qualified.......... *cough* Excuse me?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhawkins Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 At the risk of this degenerating into a pointless discussion, I think we've hit on one of the key problems with the perceptions of an engineer in the UK. People here think an engineer is the guy who turns up with a bag of spanners and fixes your washing machine. That's not an engineer, as someone said previously, that's (probably) a technician (if you're lucky). On the continent, the title 'Engineer' can be used as a prefix (like Dr. for example), showing that they have professional qualifications and experience to be able to work in one of the many fields of engineering. The 'true' definition of an engineer would be Mark Stanton and Gordon Murray in Blatman's examples, not the brickies that build the house or the mechanics in the pit lane. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming... Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Yupright Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm not saying engineers *can't* design, I'm just saying that designing is a completely different discipline. If an engineer went for a job as a designer, he wouldn't get it. Likewise, a designer wouldn't get a job as an engineer...... sheesh...... You talking out your again blatman? You cannot tar all engineers with the same brush like that. I'm a software/systems engineer and spend a lot of my time designing. In fact we employ no 'designers' only graduate engineers, engineers, senior engineers, consultant engineers, senior consultant engineers etc etc... No one here has a degree in 'design', we're all engineers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhawkins Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm a software/systems engineer I didn't want to confuse the issue by bringing Software Engineers into it People say, 'but don't software engineers build programs?'. Well, in the true definition of the word, no. Programmers do that. The software engineer decides what's going to be built and how, all the programmer does is 'translate' the design into working code. Clear? As mud probably Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oioi Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 blatman - have you become a troll surely you dopnt believe the twaddle you are peddling I am of to france where they understand what an engineer is Au revoir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gadrego Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 This topic has left me a little confused becsuse my job title is Design Engineer so now I don't know what I am. Seriously though, there are just several fields of engineering, one of which is design. Manufacturing Engineers may not do a lot of design work, nor would a chemical engineer but as a design engineer, design is my job, pure and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I'm a software/systems engineer I didn't want to confuse the issue by bringing Software Engineers into it People say, 'but don't software engineers build programs?'. Well, in the true definition of the word, no. Programmers do that. The software engineer decides what's going to be built and how, all the programmer does is 'translate' the design into working code. Clear? As mud probably Andy No no no..... Software engineering is a concept not a role. People latched on to the phrase to make it sound like they were better than 'programmers' - or programmers who don't want to shift into being analysts or managers and want to stay technical grab it as a title. An analyst/designer comes up with designs, a programmer codes them. Deciding how things should be coded for a particular project would be down to a bunch of senior programmers, often referred to as technical architects or something - but they're 'just' experienced programmers at the end of the day. Also probably depends on what type of application you're used to developing. Oh, developer, there's another title. I'll get my own coat... cheers Mike "Consultant" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8ight Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 "On September 27th the K2000 engine in 220bhp specification made its race debut in a 2hr BARC endurance race at Thruxton in a works entered MG ZR. The engine ran faultlessly, powering the car to 9th place overall and winning its class....." you all missed that one. 2 hr endurance race !! well thats it proven enough for me. NOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 You talking out your again blatman?You cannot tar all engineers with the same brush like that. I'm a software/systems engineer and spend a lot of my time designing. In fact we employ no 'designers' only graduate engineers, engineers, senior engineers, consultant engineers, senior consultant engineers etc etc... Hardly on topic, software and chemical engineers! I was referring to the terms as they applied to car design and engineering. You guys are taking it all a *bit* to literally. But hey, engineers are well known for not being too bright when it comes to the written word............ OK, so I made a slight error in tarring ALL engineers with the same brush as far as job apps goes. The general rule, as I see it, is designers design, but rarely get their hands dirty. Engineers get their hands dirty, and generally are unfamiliar with how to proceed from a blank sheet of paper sat next to a design brief. As for the chemical/software engineer points, well there are always going to be exceptions to the general rule. Software and chemical engineering would be two of those such exceptions. There are probably more. But to keep it on the car theme, who would you want designing your next car? Gordon Murray/Rory Byrne/Adrian Newey/Pininfarina/Bertone (the last two are famous design houses, not engineering firms who work with machine tool, lathes and the like), or one of the workshop engineers? Would Gordon Murray/Rory Byrne/Adrian Newey/Pininfarina/Bertone know what to do if they were presented with a Porsche with a knackered clutch? Well, they'd probably know what to do, but not where to start. They'd probably call for an engineer, or a technician, if all the engineers were busy designing the new Maclaren F1........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Albert Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I want to know if Batters is a Search Designer or a Search Engineer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick M Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 I thought designers were the people who sat in cosy offices and drew pretty pictures, while engineers were the poor b*******s who had to put those drawings into practice and make the thing, usually while b***hing about how those bl**** designers have no clue about actually making something work in the real world... and yes, I'm in "sweeping generalisation" mode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Yupright Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 ......... besides, a BSc(Eng) won't do you any good applying for a job as a designer for *anything*. You won't be qualified.......... ...then, which doesnt exactly give the impression of being specific to car design. By criticising skills of a certain profession you can offend an awful lot of people. Least we actually do some work, rather than spending all day on this board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilwillis Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Just a matter of concepts then. Engineering is one thing, and a degree in engineering is the qualification you get if you study the same. An engineer, as has been stated, can be a person conversant in the repair/maintenance of plant/equipment, and is not necessarily the holder of a degree in engineering, but has an oily rag in his back pocket. Technically a technician, but still an engineer in name. I am absolutely certain Blatters didn't intend to belittle the people who have engineering degrees, or the guys with the rag stuck in the back pocket either. He is quite correct however in saying that you need more than a degree to go out and design successful engines. A degree is, in my industry anyway, a starting point where theory ends, and practice begins, and I suspect that good design is more than just good theory. And on the other matter, just remember that the company that designed the K series also designed the Allegro! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 in saying that you need more than a degree to go out and design successful engines. A degree is, in my industry anyway, a starting point where theory ends, and practice begins, and I suspect that good design is more than just good theory. Sounds about right to me. when ive finished my degree (Beng Motorsports Engineering) i want to do a masters and then spend a couple of years as a mechanic in a race team. In one aspect i will be over qualified but i think you learn can learn things in a pit lane you can't in a lecture theatre. Plus another note on engineering. Most qualified engineers end up being management anyway....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Dont say things like this: Have you seen OiOi's post? :devil ...then, which doesnt exactly give the impression of being specific to car design. I apologised for that. OK, so I made a slight error in tarring ALL engineers with the same brush as far as job apps goes. See? I want to know if Batters is a Search Designer or a Search Engineer? Who's Batters? Fatty must be an engineer too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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