Ban of petrol and diesel (only) cars from 2030

[Blatman]

Charging points and electricity supply/infrastructure will be moot if hydrogen fuel cells get going. I'm betting (hoping) that hydrogen will see a MASSIVE push with incentives from government. Why pay BILLIONS for nuclear power and infrastructure when for (probably) a lot less, hydrogen can be in the tank. Places the infrastructure question firmly in the hands of the oil companies who will have to adapt and who already have the distribution and delivery points. A bit of alteration and they'll be away. Yes there will be the usual complaints about government funding private companies but when compared to the TAX we're all going to have to pay for the rest of our lives what with Covid debt in the many hundreds of billions already, if hydrogen support is cheaper than the MASSIVE infrastructure bill for lecky then I don't give a rats a**

 

45 minutes ago, Rush Motorspurt said:

agreed, I’m not bothered about getting to London 20 mins quicker.

 

On the flip side though, I’m very keen on getting OUT of the place quicker, so swings and roundabouts!

 

You're not allowed in. We had a meeting...

[DonPeffers]

Years ago (was it under the Brown Premiership?) there was a push to diesel cars (low CO2) then particulate problem found so bin diesel and go back to petrol or maybe hybrid or electric if it suits.

 

There is a danger we go down the electric route only later to decide hydrogen is a better alternative; something my neighbour has reckoned for yonks.

[Alan France]

1 hour ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

A ban on the sale is quite different from an outright ban which will follow as night follows day but some years later. You can buy and run an ICE car up to the specified date and continue to run it thereafter - for a period as yet unpublished. My point was that if the outright ban date is a decade or more after 2030 then those who have learned to drive and maintain their cars sympathetically should be unaffected for some time.

I guess what Gov will do is to progressively increase the Road Fund for petrol/diesel until it really hurts. Then when electric gains traction increase that to “protect the grid.” I suggest the Green lobby don’t just want to kill petrol/diesel but will then go after electric when the time comes. 

[Kit Car Electronics]

Current EU7 emission proposals around 2026 will force a fairly dramatic shift towards electrification anyway, so this 2030/2035 plan is perhaps just the natural next step after that, and an acceleration of what the EU already has planned for 2040. The auto industry can likely adapt to changing regulations much faster than our nation's charging infrastructure, so interesting times ahead!

[jeff oakley]

They will never ban petrol or diesel cars completely. Just like when steam replaced horses, they became a leisure pursuit mainly. When Steam was usurped by the internal combustion engine, they became a leisure item.

 

It will be the same with cars and all historic vehicles and yes fuel will become harder to source but it will still be there.

 

I am firmly in the camp that this is a political knee jerk aimed to get the greens onside somewhat. I also share the view that it is achievable as no one has thought of the thousands of people with on street parking and just the enormity of having a fully thought out charging plan in next 30 years when electric cars will be the norm.

 

On a day to day basis, apart from cost, electric cars make sense it is only when you look at long journeys that they make no sense unless time is unimportant. Hydrogen is the way forward. We have conveniently placed filling stations and it is easily handled and can be produced using green power.

 

Of course there could be a million things change before all this happens

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

36 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

On a day to day basis, apart from cost, electric cars make sense it is only when you look at long journeys that they make no sense

Unfortunately, those that create the legislation tend to fall into this trap. There is a very significant number of workers whose day to day driving is all long journeys. 
 

My business partners wife is constantly having to borrow his Freelander for work, as her company electric car, simply doesn’t have the range to cope with many of her working days.

[jeff oakley]

If you look at most of the statistics Dave, the average commute is 23 miles and only 14% travel over 42 miles. 

 

My longest commute was when I worked in Southampton and drove daily from Bristol there and back which is 200 miles per day. Many electric cars will do that and as the battery life gets better it will become easier.

 

I read an article in the Practicle Classics magazine where they drove a Tesla to the South of France and back to collect a Citroen DS. The software worked out the route to charging stations etc and as they were no bound by time it worked out as a good paced well service journey.

 

For me I like to be able to deviate when the whim takes me, that was the only downside for them as they had to stick to the plan as hotels and the like were factored in.

 

Even sales reps could cope if the charging infrastructure improves.

 

Now vans, we had a full electric VW van on test. It drove well but the range was awful. Battery reserve from Barking to Romford it went from 80% charge to 56%. It took 9 hours to charge back up to full. Now that was on a 3 pin plug not a fast charger,but they say that would have taken 4 hours which is too long. Our vans do 200 miles each day minimum so even though we would like to be seen as green they simply are not there yet for us.

 

We are in for interesting times  

[DamperMan]

On the plus side the roads of Cornwall should be quieter in the summer.   The m5 services will have overnight charging and probably a casino and all sorts. 

[Terry Everall]

Has anyone predicted the amount of electricity required never mind the charging points and infrastructure etc

 

[SootySport]

10 hours ago, Alan France said:

 

 

Not sure what happens to the grid if we all go electric.

 

 

On that point no need to worry, electric consumption has been going down since 2008, led bulbs, more efficient white goods and the demise of heavy industry have helped.  

[corsechris]

There is a fundamental issue with hydrogen that needs consideration. Producing it in a green fashion is going to require a significant increase in electricity production. Assuming we start with green electricity, hydrogen as fuel in a vehicle is between 2.5 and 3 times less efficient than using that energy to charge batteries.

 

There are arguments that it isn’t that bad if you allow that most H2 is produced by cracking gas, but we really can’t be replacing one fossil fuel pathway with another. It had to be renewable or it’s pointless. 

 

There’s a typically acrimonious discussion on this very topic over on pistonheads and there are two camps. One that seems to have genuine insider knowledge and is saying passenger cars will be BEV, and the other side that can only come up with a few questionable and speculative reports that suggest HFCEV is the way forward.

 

BEV charging needs sorting, but the bulk of the required infrastructure already exists. Very much not the case for H2. We already have sufficient capacity for BEV. 

 

Personally I think H2 will eventually find a natural home in trains truck and ships and maybe even aircraft, but not for a long long time. Meanwhile, BEV tech is marching on. 
 

Not forgetting that an HFCEV is effectively a hybrid as it needs batteries as well to isolate the FC from the variable demands of the powertrain, as well as regen, if used.

[corsechris]

11 hours ago, Terry Everall - WSCC Competition Secretary said:

Has anyone predicted the amount of electricity required never mind the charging points and infrastructure etc

 

Yes, national grid have done so. Not a problem according to them. Charging is for sure a problem though and based on current results, could do with some concerted effort to get a grip. 
 

 There are some big potential benefits from having lots of car batteries connected to the grid too. 

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

If I've said this before then put it down to memory fade, but it has seemed to me for a while that with many rechargeable items we charge the battery remotely from the appliance and often we have a spare battery already charged. If manufacturers were to collaborate on setting a standard for a range of interchangeable batteries - size, connectors, mounting, etc., we could have exchangeable batteries ready charged at various points on our journey at which, in about fifteen minutes, the depleted cell would be swapped for a full one and the cost of recharging the depleted one deducted from an account after it's charged. Three sizes would suffice I reckon, at least at first. Batteries degrade with age but if the fixed cost, over and above the charge cost, were applied proportionate to the particular battery's residual capacity and therefore the available energy per charge, then this would be coped with with no worries for the drivers. Obviously this needs thinking through by those 'skilled in the art' as patent agents would say, but it's not beyond the wit of humanity - Elon Musk notwithstanding obviously! 

[Captain Colonial]

Sorted.

 

 

[corsechris]

43 minutes ago, Man On The Clapham Omnibus said:

If I've said this before then put it down to memory fade, but it has seemed to me for a while that with many rechargeable items we charge the battery remotely from the appliance and often we have a spare battery already charged. If manufacturers were to collaborate on setting a standard for a range of interchangeable batteries - size, connectors, mounting, etc., we could have exchangeable batteries ready charged at various points on our journey at which, in about fifteen minutes, the depleted cell would be swapped for a full one and the cost of recharging the depleted one deducted from an account after it's charged. Three sizes would suffice I reckon, at least at first. Batteries degrade with age but if the fixed cost, over and above the charge cost, were applied proportionate to the particular battery's residual capacity and therefore the available energy per charge, then this would be coped with with no worries for the drivers. Obviously this needs thinking through by those 'skilled in the art' as patent agents would say, but it's not beyond the wit of humanity - Elon Musk notwithstanding obviously! 

Tesla actually did this for a very short period and there was an entire car/battery swap system prototype built that did automatic battery swaps, but the conclusion was it’s a solution without a problem. The need to recharge in as long as it takes to fill a petrol tank isn’t the same as the habit/desire to do it. It’s about the only thing H2 offers over BEV and is being used by proponents as the killer feature. I just don’t buy it myself.