Arm Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Blatters I'm with you its not complicated. Wear a chuffin mask and follow the guidance. Christ we'd never be able to introduce driving cars now. Some would be saying its safe at 70mph but I'm allegedly going to die at 71mph. I despair of some of the comments I hear and its becoming normal to not understand anything. If we were told to breath some muppet would object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 I dont think the basic advice of wear a mask and wash your hands has ever been the issue. It's the little nuanced details of all the extra regulations that are starting to needle people. Can't meet a family member in your house but you can in a pub. You can't meet more than 6 from 2 households but 20 sweaty blokes or lasses can play contact sports on the same bit of grass. You can go to a cafe for lunch but not a restaurant (scotland) Residents of Wales can't travel within the country yet people from massively higher infection rate areas of England can go to Wales. Northampton has the highest infection rate in the country and currently has no additional restrictions. I could go on. Granted you are always going to have the nobbers who break the rules regardless but that's going to be the case with or without new restrictions. Hopefully the introduction of the new 3 tier system on Monday will go some way to clarify things. However I can't for the life of me understand why it takes them so long to get organised and announce this stuff. You would have thought these plans would have all been drawn up a long time ago...... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arm Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Its throttling, allows some freedom some speed. Not taken the throttle off us altogether. It never going to be a perfect soln. Not everywhere is open, no big family hugs and multiple gatherings in small rooms. Pubs have some control. I could go on about differences in being outside vs being inside.. We have been given some freedom but what do we want , complete shutdown or ignore it and hope it will go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, Arm said: We have been given some freedom but what do we want , complete shutdown or ignore it and hope it will go away. ok playing devils advocate here. But what happens if no vaccine is successful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 36 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: ok playing devils advocate here. But what happens if no vaccine is successful? Then all that's left is herd immunity and treatment of the very sick. Shield the elderly and vulnerable (for many many more months yet), the rest of us will just have to get on with. To an extent that means it becomes a personal decision with the obvious conflict of what the boss wants compared to what we may want. There is no way to square that circle and I don't think anyone should try, ESPECIALLY the government. BUT because of the world we live in the government will get blasted for doing nothing just as they get blasted for doing something. Generally if I'm going to get it in the neck then I'd rather get it in the neck for making an effort than not. I think government is much the same. The oppositon call for the government to take action then criticise the action taken. All things being equal I'd roll my eyes and move on but things are not equal. As I have said elsewhere this is not a time for opposition just becasue one flag is a different colour to the other. I think for the first time since the Second World War we need a government of unity for the good of the people and the nation. But none of them have the balls. Johson because he has the biggest majority since Maggie and Starmer because he's still being sniped by Momentum and some of the unions in a continuous friendly fire bombardment. I'm sure they're all proud of themselves but really they need to get their collective heads out their fundaments and work for the good of the people and the country (like they're supposed to) rather than their respective parties and their own echo chambers. I'm with ARM (hello Dad) on the "confusing" rules. People relax at home and forget themselves, and of course there is no oversight. Public spaces and shops/pubs etc SHOULD be exercising some control. If we go back to Dons chart where it shows the majority of infections are at home, surely the rules for being at home make sense because that is clearly (if one believes the figures, and we've had a good go at them already) where the problem lies. But as mentioned, the virus doesn't spontaneously pitch up when we get home, so it then follows that we should impose, and "encourage" imposition of the 2 metre mask wearing rules in any enclosed public space, be it shop, pub, cafe, work, the train/tube/bus or whatever. It really isn't difficult. What is making it difficult is people LOOKING for cracks in the government position, twisting it to suit their own personal narrative then using "politics" as justification for doing all kinds of dumb things and then boasting about it on Facebook. The irony being I'm betting a large number of the non-conformists out there never bother to vote... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_l Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 41 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: ok playing devils advocate here. But what happens if no vaccine is successful? I think we just carry on doing what we are doing now, with the main objectives of a) keeping it at a level that our hospitals can get back to important life saving routine treatments, b) leaving scope to treat the treatable Covid incoming, while c) protecting the elderly as far as is practicable. I don't think the current cases admissions and deaths (or next week or the week after) worry the government , it is the nightmare scenario of November/December with an overwhelmed NHS, sending people home to die. I am extremely disappointed with the petty wrangling of the press and politicians, feeding people a constant stream of "carry on, this is not you, it is a government failure" when that is patently not the whole truth. I am extremely disappointed because it is clear a great deal of selfishness has hugely contributed to where we are. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 minute ago, jim_l said: I am extremely disappointed with the petty wrangling of the press and politicians, feeding people a constant stream of "carry on, this is not you, it is a government failure" when that is patently not the whole truth. I am extremely disappointed because it is clear a great deal of selfishness has hugely contributed to where we are. Put it better than I did... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve (sdh2903) Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 11 minutes ago, Blatman said: There is no way to square that circle and I don't think anyone should try, ESPECIALLY the government But at some point that squaring of the circle is going to have to be attempted. The only countries who have been successful at suppressing numbers are those with total lockdown such as oz and nz. But even there they have had increased numbers as soon as restrictions lifted. The UK have clearly stated a full lockdown would be disastrous. 16 minutes ago, Blatman said: People relax at home and forget themselves, and of course there is no oversight Well personally I don't agree. Not In my household anyway. I have far more control and oversight of what happens regards to distancing and hygiene/cleaning in my home than I do in any other public area. It doesn't really seem that there's much official oversight there either. 19 minutes ago, Blatman said: What is making it difficult is people LOOKING for cracks in the government position I agree with the sentiment but when a government presents you with those cracks they are bound to be exploited. There's no transparency in the decision making which leads to all the ridiculous conspiracy theories about areas with high ranking MPs not getting locked down. Why can't they come up with a simple system like hit 50 per 100k and this happens. Hit 100 per 100k and this happens and so on...... Complete transparency and everyone knows what's happening/will happen. Or is that too simplistic/idealistic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: Well personally I don't agree. Not In my household anyway. I have far more control and oversight of what happens regards to distancing and hygiene/cleaning in my home than I do in any other public area. It doesn't really seem that there's much official oversight there either. Yes but you are taking it seriously and paying attention, as am I. But I KNOW for 100% sure there are hundreds upon hundreds of households within a mile of where Ilive where no such common sense is in place. I myself live in a block of flats. There are 12 dwellings with around 36 people. So I live in the same building as 35 other people and I have no idea if they are taking precautions or not. All I can do is make sure I do. 12 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: But at some point that squaring of the circle is going to have to be attempted. But I don't want the government to make the decision. As Jim says, it's way past time for a bit of tough love. 14 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: I agree with the sentiment but when a government presents you with those cracks they are bound to be exploited. No government plan is perfect. There are always cracks and as I said, all things being equal I roll my eyes and move on. Right now is not the time for exploting cracks, it's time to help government fix the cracks for the good of the people and the country. But no, serving the people is too far down the list of priorities to be considered a good use of resources. 18 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: There's no transparency in the decision making which leads to all the ridiculous conspiracy theories about areas with high ranking MPs not getting locked down. Government regularly publish the scientific advice behind the decision making process. Don had a link to it elsewhere. MP's not obeying the rules is irritating but if it was ONLY those people then it would be fine. Yes of course there will be thousands of idiots out there who choose to be lead by that example rather than the example of the VAST MAJORITY of politicians and public figures who do follow the guidelines. The irony of simultaneously spitting bile at a politician whilst at the same time using that example as an excuse to flout perfectly reasonable guidelines is almost unbearable and entirely lost on those who find themselves mask free in the pub... 29 minutes ago, Steve (sdh2903) said: Why can't they come up with a simple system like hit 50 per 100k and this happens. Hit 100 per 100k and this happens and so on...... Complete transparency and everyone knows what's happening/will happen. Or is that too simplistic/idealistic? I like the idea but it is too simplistic for the politics. If there was no politics involved it would be a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hurdsfield - Joint Manchester AO Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 This is what we are up against. I sold my daily driver on Saturday so yesterday we had to go somewhere on the tram. The masks were on and off continuously throughout their journey. I can understand that a bit when your wearing specs cos’ they steam up, but they weren’t. Then one stop before they got off the tram the masks came off completely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 I know shops and businesses don't want to alienate customers by insisting on mask compliance but at what point do we and the business owners accept that non-compliance is going to cost far more in the long run. Turning away people who refuse to respect their staff and their compliant customers is surely the way forwards to help prevent the spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 The public have become used to treating the world as if it's Disneyland. Made of fibreglass and guaranteed not to harm you no matter how dangerous it seems nor how stupidly you behave. No-one takes responsibility for their own welfare. If a child gets eaten by a lion (Stanley Holloway's Albert, for the elders!) it's not their parents' fault for letting them climb in, but someone - anyone - else's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPeffers Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 19 hours ago, Alan France said: Not sure your comparison is consistent, it's not a political virus. Bolton local shutdown 21 July IIRC when figure was less than one third of what Boris' constituency is now. Nottingham 760 cases per 100000 highest in Country not locked down yet https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/nottinghams-rate-new-covid-19-4593779 Oops Nottingham goose fair cancelled first time since 1645 bubonic plague--getting serious alright. We could just tell the public covid can be deadly BUT don't assume you can get hospital treatment as other areas need to catch up on treatments for other patients. It might engender a more cautious approach for some cavalier members of the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arm Posted October 12, 2020 Share Posted October 12, 2020 Thanks guys I think this conversation is fair and reasonable and we are coming to the conclusion there is no simple way out ? At the moment there isn't even a complicated way out (well there probably is but I'm being flippant) . To answer Jim's question the other half has a good knowledge of vaccines and isn't thinking anytime soon for one. Then likely high risk people get it first and possibly 6 months later before the rest of us and yep it may not be effective. No guarantees. I hear cries for more transparency , I'm sure there is data if we search and there are some rushed decisions also. But probably we aren't in a position to satisfy all with the actions proposed. Plus it would never get agreed with all parties anyway. As for letting local leaders make their own decisions how would that work if you lived in one borough and next door was another - different restrictions ! Repeated many more times. Complete chaos I'd suggest. We can't even agree between Wales, England and Scotland. I haven't much time for Boris and am watching Keir with interest but have yet to see any useful contribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonPeffers Posted October 12, 2020 Author Share Posted October 12, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54508921 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54479215 "Nottingham still has the highest rate of infection in England, latest data from Public Health England shows. In the week up to 9 October, the rate of infection per 100,000 people in Nottingham was 834.2. - the highest in the country. That is almost double the rate of the week before, which was 425.7 up to 2 October".. "High" alert (below top tier, very high) means households will be banned from mixing indoors and the rule of six will apply outdoors. While pubs and bars will still have to close at 22:00, they will not be forced to shut completely". Some expected Nottingham to be in top tier, but not for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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