Grenfell Tower fire disaster

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

1 hour ago, dpeffers said:

Seems PE can still emit poisonous CO gas.

If PE (and not PIR) then unclear why King's College Hospital confirmed to Sky News that three of its 12 Grenfell patients were treated with Cyanokit, the hydrogen cyanide antidote.

I suppose it might in semi-anaerobic conditions. You don't know what blowing agent was used to foam it, nor any processing compounds such as anti-oxidant, stabiliser, lubricant, etc. Nowhere near as nasty as poly-isocyanates, especially the TDI variety I seem to recall. 

[Kit Car Electronics]

What is going on here? Is it really possible that NOBODY had the sense to use the fire retardant panels, or are they also failing tests?? 

http://news.sky.com/story/tower-block-cladding-27-buildings-fail-fire-safety-tests-10925792

[Captain Colonial]

I think two things were at play:

> It provided a cheap way to make existing buildings more interior temperature stable and energy efficient at a fraction of the cost of tearing down old blocks and building new ones.

> Who thinks the exterior of a concrete building is going to catch fire?  Probably no one.  Why use fire resistant material to protect a non-flammable surface?  You probably wouldn't even consider if it was fire resistant or not when it's sandwiched between concrete and aluminium.  Yet that sandwich effect seemed to act as a Venturi, accelerating the fire up the building.

A lesson to be learned here as well - make sure your fridge / freezer has plenty of room around it to breathe, i.e. don't stack stuff on top of it.  The cause of this was the auto defrost device for the freezer overheating.

[jeff oakley]

I think this is part of the problem. Testing appears to have been done all over the place and certificates may well have been given on samples supplied, however they "may" not be as fitted or the testing in differing test facilities is not the same.

Media organisations are doing their own tests and that may not be indicative of the testing to pass the standard.

I think we used to have a central testing criteria done in UK accredited testing houses but now it is not. I am sure this may well change in future and some robust testing of all products. I would not be surprised to see the Fire Brigade getting a bigger say in future.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

46 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

I think this is part of the problem. Testing appears to have been done all over the place and certificates may well have been given on samples supplied, however they "may" not be as fitted or the testing in differing test facilities is not the same.

Media organisations are doing their own tests and that may not be indicative of the testing to pass the standard.

I think we used to have a central testing criteria done in UK accredited testing houses but now it is not. I am sure this may well change in future and some robust testing of all products. I would not be surprised to see the Fire Brigade getting a bigger say in future.

Your right Jeff, we used to have BSI who ran an excellent shop and to get the kitemark was some achievement. Of course that far more important organisation the EU took over and then all manufacturers had to do was to get tests done themselves (by whichever organisation they chose) and then they would mark the product with a CE mark. No checking, no further issues till it all goes pearshaped as it just has. Anyone with half a brain could see how open it was to abuse, but there was no argueing with the great EU. So guess which country that one gave advantage to, certainly not the UK that always took quality seriously due to the BSI.

[Thrustyjust]

From my engineers prospective with loosing friends in the fire , he said the main internal areas of the flats were not updated and the outside was boshed to look modern and pretty. Yes, the building was engulfed and people perished because of it, but the fire had managed to escape the flat , which is another issue that needs to be dealt with . Using plastic frames for windows is probably not a great idea but were cheaper than aluminium . They may had kept the fire more localised. Fire Alarm system is another. I cant believe this wasnt working. The defrost system on a fridge usually uses a rubberised heater element. It is very unusual for this to fail but not unheard of. Its a system used is millions of fridges and the chance of fire is the same as anything. Using hi power batteries these days in phones and gadgets , is a more probably fire and can end up the same way as the fridge. Only this week I found my daughters laptop charging on her bed when she went to work !! I dont think that anything with combustability should be used in areas of risk, but until Grenfell, the outside wasnt probably considered a risk, but the fire must be controlled in the flat and made to not escape from it.

[DonPeffers]

With the Fire Officer declaring 4 Camden tower blocks unsafe yet 200 residents refusing to leave, thus holding up remedial work, why don't the Council turn off gas and electric to the flats as a safety measure to help convince the 200 to leave?

[Olliebeak]

Why does everyone have to leave, I thought the work was exterior , put a fire warden type person on each floor they seem to be plenty of the hi vis brigade milling around doing not very much. I would rather stay than sleep on an air bed in a sports hall for at least four weeks.

[John K]

On 6/25/2017 at 08:01, Kit Car Electronics said:

or are they also failing tests

 

On 6/25/2017 at 10:14, jeff oakley said:

Media organisations are doing their own tests and that may not be indicative of the testing to pass the standard

I was involved on the peripheries of system testing and we used to approach tests with a "test to fail" mentality and suppliers would always "test to pass". Depending on where you start, you can get different results.

From the little I have read it seems if you direct a flame at the center of the Aluminium panel, you will get a different time to ignite than it you introduce the flame directly to the foam (as in a scenario where a panel was damaged or misfitted)

What is the point of reference for the test - is it "how quickly can we get it to ignite" or "how long can we make it last"... Both will give very different results.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

The spread of flame tests I attended at (I think) Yarsley Laboratories were a bl**** great gas radiant panel close to a vertical plane mounted sample. No direct application of flame at all. This was a good while ago, mind you... 

[DonPeffers]

18 hours ago, Olliebeak said:

Why does everyone have to leave, I thought the work was exterior , put a fire warden type person on each floor they seem to be plenty of the hi vis brigade milling around doing not very much. I would rather stay than sleep on an air bed in a sports hall for at least four weeks.

At Camden problems found with gas pipes safety and lack of adequate fire doors so not just an exterior cladding problem. Also the cladding at Grenfell went up like a Roman candle in 15 minutes and many residents old or disabled so not easy nor quick to evacuate over 120 flats in the event of a fire hence all being asked to move out.

Can you imagine the uproar if Camden Council had said the Fire Officer has declared your building unsafe but we have decided to keep you in there while work goes on to make it safe?

[jeff oakley]

There is so much we do not know yet and also do not know with Camden. The CEO said they had been supplied cladding which was not what they specified, but there appears to be confusion as to what specification they were looking for.

Before the Grenfell fire, someone who is a fire expert signed off all the works on completion at Camden, now they have invited the Fire Brigade in who are now looking with hindsight at everything.

1000 Fire doors missing, were they meant to be there or are the FB now saying every room should have one fitted? Did they pay for them and not fitted, fitted and removed and sold by others, too many questions at present.

The Gas pipe issue, again signed off but the FB are saying it is unsafe why? Is it not insulated, not in a fire proof location etc.

There is simply too much bad reporting, half truths, lies and political posturing at the moment for any meaningful conclusions. I suspect it will be lots of things not quite right, from building regs, testing, installation to blame.

It is fortunate that these are in a Labour controlled council so the rhetoric has not been as savage as if it was a Tory run one adding to the confusion.

[DonPeffers]

Sure I heard Georgia Gould say on the news the Council had specified rockwool cladding.

Seems the latest on the news is many residents want to return to the Camden flats as fed up in sports halls or hotels.

If a tower goes up like Grenfell will the residents expect firefighters to risk their lives to save the deliberately reckless?

Turn off the gas and electric to the flats now and bar re-entry.

 

[jeff oakley]

They have just evacuated a block of flats in Germany due to the cladding issue there. This will change thing for the better for a lot of people.

As for forcing people out, well I can see it from both angles. The chances of any building doing the same as Grenfell now are very slim indeed as the problem is known. For the council they have a bigger issue if they do not say leave they are being reckless, so we have this unravelling social and legal mess.

I cannot see why it would slow down the process of repairs at all, others who know more may well understand the problem better. But as they never moved anyone out before when they did the refurb it must be possible.

Some Premier Inns have cladding, some were saying they would not stay in one as they are dangerous. Well I am staying in one of the affect buildings next week, I am not brave but they have sprinklers, fire alarms and no one dumb enough to light barbeques in a room or balcony.

Councils and landlords have to try to think of every thing that might happen.

[Rory's Dad]

For clarification...

Rain can get past the rain screen cladding (it's just a screen) and the airspace behind is designed to be ventilated to allow any rain that did get through to be dried off.  The impact of fire getting into this space is what made the spread of fire so considerable.