Grenfell Tower fire disaster

[Kit Car Electronics]

Hear hear. It's absolutely sickening that according to initial reports it appears to have been the PE cored panels that were used when mineral cored fire retardant versions were available. Regardless of regulations, that must be criminally irresponsible if true and many more building records should be checked immediately.

[Rory's Dad]

I have a son who is a firefighter. They are well trained and will do all they can to save lives even if technically they are exceeding the 'management's'  and h+s' requirements.

[Andy_R]

On 16/06/2017 at 14:26, dpeffers said:

And with planning for a fire at home everyone should have a home fire extinguisher.

We think about it for the car but not always for the home. Many years ago had a small kitchen fire and had to run to the car to get the extinguisher; now have home extinguishers.

 

And remember to service them on a regular basis.

A few years ago I did a car boot at Sodbury (big Landrover event near Newbury) and at the end of the day I had two very old (over 10 years) fire extinguishers left. Instead of binning them me and my brother decided to use them (as you do after a couple of beers). Despite being correctly 'charged' hardly anything came out. Now I keep a log of the extinguishers I have in my phones diary as a reminder to service or replace them at set intervals.

[John K]

1 hour ago, Kit Car Electronics said:

PE cored panels

I'm no chemist but I am fairly sure anything with the words poly and ethylene in it will ignite without a great deal of provocation.

I'm pretty sure the molten dripping gloop that comes of it also acts like napalm and spreads the fire

[John K]

Isn't the council ward one the ones with the greatest differential in new wealth in the UK?

That shouldn't be allowed.

Who are the council going to listen to, the billionaire whose garden party they attended last week who need an extra foot to park their Range Rover in, or the poor (literally) family complaining that their building is unsafe.

IMHO I would lay this at the council - and I have to apologize as I know some club members have relatives who are well meaning an effective councilors - but in my general opinion most folk who try to get onto the local council only do it for the ego trip because they were bullied as kids at school. It would be impossible for them not to get a stiffy when talking to the posh snobs. And to do their bidding...

I would not be surprised if the comments on the tower being beautified because it looked ugly were true...

Edited to add:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40316530/silence-the-scene-at-kensington-and-chelsea-town-hall

I guess the earnest members of the K&C council don't do Sundays - must be the all the garden parties keeping them busy

[Mark (smokey mow)]

1 hour ago, Kit Car Electronics said:

Regardless of regulations, that must be criminally irresponsible if true and many more building records should be checked immediately.

Unfortunately not Mike. If the alterations to the building had been designed and constructed to comply with UK regulations which in this case would have been the Build Act 2000 then by that very nature you are deemed to comply with the law. Criminal Responsibility can only be apportioned if the law has been broken.

 

Regardless of what the Building Regulations and Build Act says though this accident has shown that a rethink of some of the current regulations needs to be carried out as a matter of urgency Once all the facts are fully known.

[Kit Car Electronics]

29 minutes ago, Mark (smokey mow) - Joint Essex AO said:

Unfortunately not Mike. If the alterations to the building had been designed and constructed to comply with UK regulations which in this case would have been the Build Act 2000 then by that very nature you are deemed to comply with the law. Criminal Responsibility can only be apportioned if the law has been broken.

 

Regardless of what the Building Regulations and Build Act says though this accident has shown that a rethink of some of the current regulations needs to be carried out as a matter of urgency Once all the facts are fully known.

Appreciate you might not like to comment on specifics Mark, but presumably there are Fire Regulations pertaining to the external fabric of a high-rise?

[jeff oakley]

I agree that being a councillor for some is an ego trip but most I have ever met are well meaning. However some are elected because they popular not because they qualified to do the job.

One I know was a librarian, not even a head librarian but now she is head of the planning committee!! They have to rely on the advice given by the expert the council employ or commission to advise them.

The bit about the wealth, I cannot agree with, it is irrelevant to how the council works and in this disaster. Does the fact that multi millionaire Lilly Allen lives in that area along with Adel have any bearing on how a council is funded, not in anyway. Yes it is a rich council but under both labour, Tories and the Tory Lib dem alliance, none have allowed councils to use their reserves to build homes. None have reversed the policy of selling councils home off that Thatcher started. That is why we have so few social homes.

No one should feel or be made to feel ashamed at having worked hard and done something to better themselves, to set rich against poor in this way is shameful, in my opinion. What you get at the end is something we do not want and is getting worse in the UK, why do you need a play car when others cannot afford one at all, is the sort of things some would ask. It is wrong that that being wealthy, or having more than the worst off person, is seen as a crime, unless you sing a bit or play football, allowing this to happen is equally shameful

Emotions are understandably running high, which is why calm reflection with facts is needed. As Mark has said, it may not be as the media has decided, the council, the contractors etc may have followed the rules to the letter. If they have they are in the clear, sort of, if not they are looking at long term jail. If they have done everything 100% then the rules are clearly so wrong and that is a bigger mess to sort out.

[Mark (smokey mow)]

1 minute ago, Kit Car Electronics said:

Appreciate you might not like to comment on specifics Mark, but presumably there are Fire Regulations pertaining to the external fabric of a high-rise?

Yes there are, which would include  that of surface spread of flame.

I'm avoiding commenting or speculating too much at the moment though as I'm in France and have been since the fire occurred. I would like to gather all the facts myself as to design of the building and who carried out the statutory inspections of the work before I say much more rather than relying on the media reports.

[DonPeffers]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/keane-wallis-bennett-fai-inquiry-into-tragedy-concludes-1-4478481  tells the story of the conclusion on 15 June 2017 of a Fatal Accident Inquiry into the 01 April 2014 death of a 12 year old Edinburgh schoolgirl when a school internal wall fell on her. The Sheriff will give the legal determination on the case as soon as possible.

So more than 3 years to establish the cause and responsibility relating to a single death occuring inside a school.

With that in mind we could easily be looking at 5 years or more for the Grenfell Tower inquiry. Will the bereaved want to hear that? London Mayor Sadiq Khan has asked for an interim report into the disaster to be published this Summer but legally that may be impossible.

Let's hope all can keep calm heads and we don't have rioting on the streets.

[Thrustyjust]

1 hour ago, dpeffers said:

 

Let's hope all can keep calm heads and we don't have rioting on the streets.

My engineer has just sent me some photos of something kicking off down there from his bedroom window. Lets hope it doesnt escalate.

As for Mr Khan asking for a report for the summer, he has 10 weeks left , unless he means next summer, that is..............

[DonPeffers]

On 6/17/2017 at 10:36, dpeffers said:

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/30000-buildings-in-uk-are-covered-in-the-same-cladding-as-grenfell-tower-6713539/

Would you feel safe sleeping in one of those?   Only if I slept with a parachute on my back.

Correction---Only if I slept with a parachute on my back whilst wearing a gas mask.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/22/grenfell-tower-victims-poisoned-cyanide-insulation-released/

Polyisocyanurate (PIR) rigid plastic foam----“When ignited, the PIR foam insulation gives off toxic gases, including hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide, which cause rapid incapacitation when inhaled, preventing escape.

King's College Hospital confirmed to Sky News that three of its 12 Grenfell patients were treated with Cyanokit, the hydrogen cyanide antidote.

[DonPeffers]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-fire-kensington-council-chief-executive-nicholas-holgate-quits-in-wake-of-grenfell-tower-a3570381.html

The chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea Council, Nicholas Holgate, has been forced to quit his £187,000-a-year post after a flood of criticism over the handling of the Grenfell Tower disaster.

A council source said Mr Holgate’s departure “will not prevent the ‘next Grenfell’”.

That last paragraph ( “will not prevent the ‘next Grenfell’”.) is astoundingly callous, suggesting somehow that another Grenfell is inevitable.

DO NOT USE FLAMMABLE FOAM WHICH BURNS AT 700C AND GIVES OFF POISONOUS GASES.

I would like to say only the emergency services, especially the brave firefighters, come out of the disaster with any credit and many senior Government politicians should be resigning their posts.

[Man On The Clapham Omnibus]

Most recently they've been saying again that it was actually polyethylene (foam) insulation which doesn't give of much in the way of toxic fumes. In fact PE is chemically the same as candle wax but at a higher molecular weight because the chains are longer.

[DonPeffers]

Seems PE can still emit poisonous CO gas.

If PE (and not PIR) then unclear why King's College Hospital confirmed to Sky News that three of its 12 Grenfell patients were treated with Cyanokit, the hydrogen cyanide antidote.