B.RAD Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Hi John, it's one of the early Westfield cages designed for the single make race series they did in the 90's/00's, it bolts on to the rear roll over bar so is effectively removable, leaving the rear roll bar in place. Trouble is that it's 36mm OD, so won't meet the criteria specified above, unless someone has proof that it was MSA compliant at the time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrie Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 ......unless someone has proof that it was MSA compliant at the time? Surely the factory must have had some form of approval for a race series cage, as I don't think the rules have changed that much over the years. On thickness, I recall seeing something that said all tubes had to have a small hole drilled in them, so that thickness could be checked. I remember being surprised that my RAC bar didn't have one, but assumed that Westfield had approved it, so the Westfield part number cleared it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'd just like to make a point about all of this before we go to much further. As has been highlighted above where this comment was made "Surely the factory must have had some form of approval for a race series cage, as I don't think the rules have changed that much over the years." This is the main part of the problem, for over 10 years now WSCC has been telling the factory that their "RAC" bar does not comply with MSA Roll Bar specifications, yet it has taken then until a year or so ago to do something about it and bring out their "MSA" bar, although to be honest I have not checked if that is MSA Complient. So I hope you get the drift of where I lay a lot of the blame. Now on to the serious stuff, anyone wanting to compete in a Westifeld in MSA approved Sprint or Hillclimb will need to have a Roll over bar that complies with MSA regulations. These have been quoted earlier on. Now I understand that no-one wants to spend money needlessly however I would point out that there have been occasions when Westfield's roll over so you can;t say it doesn't happen. The last that I am aware of was John Roberts Electric Westfield which was particularly nasty, the car was a very heavy car over 700kg. In this crash it significantly bent a Roll Over bar made to MSA specifications. So in my personal opinion I would be very concerned to compete in a car which doesn't have the right spec bar. Even more so when you consider that a lot of our competitors are as quick as many of the single seater race cars. You do not have to fit a cage for any of our classes including Mod Prod, just an MSA complient bar, which are available from £ 260 upwards from a variety of suppliers, assuming you need to buy one. There is no getting around it or any other fiddle. If you are not sure if your bar or cage is to the right standard then one way of checking is to get your local scrutineer to have a look for you, or ask at an event you go to this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marto303 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Great idea Nick, I'll ask the scrutineers at my next 6 events if my cage ( which is the same as Barny's welded in roll bar and bolt on front cage ) will meet next years regs and report back on the response I get 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottish Bloke Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Good advice Nick, I feel for those who's cars are non compliant but would agree that we need to be aware of the possibilities if things go wrong. Glad I changed to the cage last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stanton Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I would fully concur with Nick - Since my initial involvement in the WSCC way back in 1988 the various committee teams have discussed and lobbied the factory to ensure that a fully approved MSA roll bar was made available - a few years back WSC Ltd did manufacture a roll bar that was compliant with the blue book at the time, but it was never "officially MSA approved" and as we know regs change and develop, move on - whether the current spec roll bar is compliant ?? who knows ?? Unfortunately WSC Ltd no longer have any UK based race championships or have a specialist competition dept or personnel that compete, albeit they sell "competition parts" they are simply a shop and not a competition specialist. There are other specialists around who have the specific completion experience to offer such components are do have experienced competition staff who keep abreast with current regs - such as Plays Kool, ProComp and Caged but to name three Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 All good advice, thanks guys. Had a chat with Mart earlier and his suggestion to chat through with the marshals and scrutineers at events this year is a good one. My concern is that the roll bar on my chassis is an integral part of the chassis - it's welded in. So any change isn't as simple as buying a new approved roll hoop unfortunately, it involves cutting and grinding and all sorts of trickery! At the moment that puts me out of competing again, I have no intention of cutting about the chassis. I'm not sure I understand why my welded in roll hoop and full cage are any less safe than an "approved" one - Ah well, we'll wait and see, still some great events to come this year which I'm very much looking forward to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete g Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 my cage has rose joints at the bottom so is this no good too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 All good advice, thanks guys. Had a chat with Mart earlier and his suggestion to chat through with the marshals and scrutineers at events this year is a good one. My concern is that the roll bar on my chassis is an integral part of the chassis - it's welded in. So any change isn't as simple as buying a new approved roll hoop unfortunately, it involves cutting and grinding and all sorts of trickery! At the moment that puts me out of competing again, I have no intention of cutting about the chassis. I'm not sure I understand why my welded in roll hoop and full cage are any less safe than an "approved" one - Ah well, we'll wait and see, still some great events to come this year which I'm very much looking forward to! It's only the Scutineers who can advise. Marshall's do not have any responsibility for car suitabilty, they just sort out out if you crash it Do you have a picture of the base of your Roll Bar, just to confirm which design you have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 my cage has rose joints at the bottom so is this no good too If they are at the bottom and the tubes are welded at the top and the cage has an FIA Certificate then why ? As already suggested check with a scrutineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's only the Scutineers who can advise. Marshall's do not have any responsibility for car suitabilty, they just sort out out if you crash it Do you have a picture of the base of your Roll Bar, just to confirm which design you have. Not great photos but the best I have: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Algar - Competition Secretary Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Thanks it was the mounting at the bottom of the main hoop I was after a look at under the aluminium cover. I have got to say with a cage like that I really would have a word with the chief scrutineer at your next event. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR2Turbo Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 my cage has rose joints at the bottom so is this no good too If caged it should have a silver Homologation sticker so OK under the text below The purpose of the National ROPS homologation is to allow alternative designs that do not meet MSA requirements, but can be demonstrated through calculation to be of a sufficient strength. Such ROPS must follow the basic principles of MSA regulations – such as shape of main hoop, diagonals etc. – but there is then freedom in tube dimensions, and in this case the rose joints could be considered if they are accounted for in the stress calculation. If the design is homologated, then this would mean existing ROPS to that design can be acceptable without modification 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windy Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It's down to money as always. This was always going to happen sometime, it was just a question of when. Maybe this is something the club could look into funding for the benefit of its members on a non profit basis. Seeking the approvals could be done if someone is prepared to take the necessary steps by submitting a design and finding a manufacturer: http://www.horiba-mira.com/our-services/motorsport/roll-cage-design 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Thanks it was the mounting at the bottom of the main hoop I was after a look at under the aluminium cover. I have got to say with a cage like that I really would have a word with the chief scrutineer at your next event. Thanks Nick, will do. I thought that was what you meant but don't have a photo to hand unfortunately. It won't show you anything more than the roll bars being welded to the chassis at all four points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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