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I've already done too much moaning it seems, so keeping quiet about it I think the Sprint Challenge is a good trophy, as has been said some people can't commit time or budget to a full season. It was one of the main reasons for me competing this season just gone (not the trophy itself, the fact that you could 'compete' without having to throw barrowloads of cash at it), so with it gone I'm not sure about 2018. Thanks for running the numbers Matthew! If the actual data comes out as 3% and 5% slower, why not use that? Speaking of actual data, here's an example - check Dave Cleaver's time for the last round of the season. That was in my A2 car with 1B tyres (but he's listed in H cos that's where he entered). We all know what his scores were in his class in his car (and in fact would have been around 103 average for the season had there not been a points cap), yet that day would have yielded at 97.3. My average points for the rest of the season was well over 100, and that event scored 96.96. I beat him on Saturday by a very similar margin to what he beat me by on Sunday, and I hope I can say without sounding cocky that neither of us are slow. There was historical Class B data from the year before. Anyone coming into the series with even a sniff of competitive spirit is going to be put off by such unrealistic targets. If Matthew can deduce there is a 3% and 5% difference between A/C and B/D so quickly I can't understand why it's not been looked at before. I guess it sounds like I am trying to make Class A / B easier because that's where my car sits, but I have no interest in doing that for personal gain. Quite a few of you chaps know what tyres I chose to run at selected events last year I would much rather see a healthier paddock, and a load of Class A and B cars on 1B tyres to have a crack against on my ditchfinders

@Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO - the roadgoing debate is an interesting one - if we're not defining a road going Westfield by the fact it has tax, MOT and insurance, how are we defining it? I think you run a risk of excluding more cars than you would be including if you started stipulating things like full screens, carpets etc. Would you only allow padded seats over lightweight GRP? Would you ban fuel tanks below a certain capacity? My personal opinion is that it's crazy to try and argue that one Westfield with tax, MOT and insurance is "less roadgoing" than another Westfield with tax, MOT and insurance. Don't forget we've already been there a long time ago and moved away from it to include more cars. In spirit with a popular movie at this time of year, "let it go" Key for me is offering more taster opportunities for people to get the bug and then decide what level of investment to make. If people are worried about being competitive because of the cars they see in the magazine, they need to be assured that those are the top end of the sport and that every Westfield has a place and if driven well, can be very competitive, as you yourself have been. I do agree with Martin and some of the other comments that having a separate Novice championship is a massive draw to the club, I've discussed this at different events with different competitors (lotus club members, mini club members and some FF members) and they're all blown away that we offered this and think it's a great way of getting people in. It certainly lured me in! I'd like to see that come back.

Hope this comes across the way it’s meant which is an observation not criticism. This year Was my first year competing and did loton And Harewood in class E. I thoroughly enjoyed it, everyone was welcoming, friendly and offered tips from set up, lines, tyres etc which is testimony to all who run and participate. With this in mind I decided to tweak my car and look to do a full season 2018 with a goal of novice championship. Maybe bold statement but need something to aim for. I then started to read the regs in more detail and the target times in class E are set on 1c tyres which I understand is similar in other classes. Yes I could run 1C tyres but then I’m only eligible in class E to which I was the only Car which competed this year and it means I couldn’t compete in the event organisers Road going classes as they don’t allow 1c tyres meaning I’d have next to no chance of winning a pot or a championship which I think we all like to EARN a pot. I’m now looking at other championships to have a go in and just registering in wscc to support it. The plan is to go to the autosport to learn more as I am a novice and want to fully understand where I am with the Car I have. I understand there is history to target times but I get the impression people are looking to the future Like I said not out to criticise just trying to give a novice interpretation of how I see things. Jez

I have copied times from the WSCC website, and tabulated them to; Lowest times in seconds, by Class, and Event, for Experts in 2017. Classes A2 and C are compared showing the time difference in % (A2/C). Classes B2 and D are compared showing the difference in % (B2/D). The data are incomplete. However; If we assume the fastest expert drivers are of equal ability, and that track conditions are constant throughout each event: The results show that Class A2 is slower by 3% than Class C, and Class B2, is 5% slower than Class D. My suggestion is that, where an actual time is not available, the TT difference between road going Classes A & B, and Classes C & D, should be 4%, rather than 2%. As a novice competitor in Class B, it does seem that the combination of removing Novice TTs, and the less than generous allowance of 2% for road going tyres, especially given that 75% of Class B competitors were novices in 2017, is a little discouraging, despite the best of intentions. WSCC Fastest Times 2017 Race A2 B2 C D A2/C B2/D 1 86.30 81.61 76.45 105.75% 2 60.29 3 101.90 4 131.56 5 6 49.02 7 35.68 8 44.27 9 43.12 10 129.32 120.59 11 102.07 98.33 12 61.41 50.98 13 35.55 34.47 103.13% 14 35.40 34.32 103.15% 15 64.44 16 101.01 99.16 17 99.58 99.03 18 48.12 49.64 49.23 100.83% 19 121.27 120.02 20 136.43 131.60 21 22 35.88 33.10 108.40% 23 52.07 24 34.07 25 69.23 68.68 71.20 68.57 97.23% 100.16% 26 75.37 89.55 77.74 73.11 96.95% 122.49% 27 83.07 81.44 80.82 102.00% 28 140.78 131.58 29 62.44 58.88 56.25 106.05% 30 61.34 58.25 56.05 105.30% 31 69.49 63.62 32 72.86 63.21 33 71.12 34 64.26 64.30 35 61.37 58.60 57.64 101.67% 36 97.03 96.47 95.18 101.36% Simple Average 103% 105% Count 17 6 18 27 9 5

As has already been pointed out by several people, the thing that encourages novices to have a go more than anything else is other members / competitors. If all novices are scored in the same way, what difference will it make as they will be scoring amongst themselves?

This is taking a not very nice route of I "said you said" ping pong. I assume you trhow the Draft here because you want feedback. People isn't goint to feedback the unchanged regs... is going to feedback the changes, and suggest stuff and changes. Are this suggestions being considered? or the efforts are now taken to write massive justifications about why competitors suggestions are wrong? Is being considered to rule back anything? From memory... some of the questions raised by myself or by others. Can we stop using calculated times? Any chance to re-open the SS Award to all the competitors? Any chance to re-consider the novice TT to try to encourage them a bit more in the heat of the moment? If the answer on everything is No (what it seems for the answers defending the changes), no point to open a feedback thread. On the other side, I would like to se ABSOLUTELY everybody competing, giving their feedback, and the vote should be mandatory. At the end, we are going to be dealing with this regulations whe whole year, and so far, just 4 or 5 of the current competitors have had a saying.

I cant think of any other clubs that offers such a large number of awards and trophies for Novices. All the SSOT want there to be more drivers taking part in more events and for the club to continue to be the envy of others and the best crowd in the paddock.

Seems like everything we make here, we must ship out manufacture to countries with cheaper materials and labour costs. I wonder if it will make them cheaper to buy now though I guess this may end up and as another 'Pre-lit' car in the future ? You can tell its the lightweight version as only comes with 2 nuts on each wheel

Agree with everything Maurici just said. As for me, I'm fortunate to have a choice next year as my dad has a car that I really enjoy double driving with him, which also has the benefit of very little financial outlay beyond entry fees. I'm not going to win anything (the DEWS club allows all comers, so we're up against a Caterham, a Cliosport, a spaceframed Meguiars mini and a Renault 5 Turbo!) but I get to spend time with my Dad and have fun. I only mention this as I think Terry's comment as quoted by Maurici above is slightly unfair. After the awards do, the bug really bit again and I started to investigate options to keep going in the speed series against an incredibly tight financial year with a lot of personal commitments elsewhere. The sprint challenge would have been the only motivator for me, that's gone, so I'm out.

Honest. I can´t really beleave this comment, and I think is really unfortunate. No much people has spoken about commit money or time to Sprinting. I´ve been one of them, so I really want to leave my position really clear. In my case, sprinting is my least favourite form of motorsport, witch I do because I feel Is the only form of competing i´m capable of, (moneywise, and skillwise), but what I do like is to spend time behind the wheel in a track. That is why I do more trackdays than sprinting in general. With a set of tyres that I bought a year ago, that I paid 70 pounds for it and keeps lasting till now after 6 trackdays. Normally in oulton park whitch is literaly down the road from mine. And normally in a weekday that I find myself free for any reason . The return normally is awesome, as for very little I do have loads of fun and I drive the car in a trackday more than in 10 years sprinting. The only reason I compete is: 1:) Spend time with you lot. (human reward) 2:) Have a bit of thrill to actually aim for some sort of trophy. (Driving reward) If the second reason is gone... Because unrealistic target times, because I have to throw sums of money I´m not ready to expend, or because the trophy I was aiming for no longer exist or not actual competitor in my class or whatever, then the return is spend time with people who I enjoy to be. But I can do about the same just coming to the events to expectate, give a hand to the people and actually enjoy even more as I don´t have the hassle to carry the car, risking to crash (witch i do very often) for a 5 minutes of driving a day. No matter how many runs I´m given. Is never going to be any similar to a trackday. The only weekend of sprinting I do really enjoy is the blyton weekend, and is mainly becaus of the trackday and the social part of it. Nobody is going to put the car out in a start line to support a club. If not, the whole club would be competing. Support comes as an "exchange" of an interesting championship. I´ve been unluky this year as my class has been anything but interesting. If you want my support, ask me to come marshaling in the padock, or to be behing the sign on table, but don´t ask me to put my car to compete If I don´t feel is the right thing to do. As Myself, everyone else that expend its time in a different form of motorsport, will have their genuine reason. That cant be judged, and shouldn´t be even commented.

Clearly I’ve missed something, I thought this was about getting numbers up. From the non westfield rounds I did there was 6 in a class on 1b tyres 4 of which were Westfields not registered in the speed series. From the westfield rounds I did I was on my own. I was trying to make the link to getting new people to join and support the westfield club. Apologies, I appreciate it’s complicated and no simple solution to keep everyone happy, there is always compromises to be made.

Could I just remind some people that the MSA changed the tyre situation by declaring that Avon ZZR tyres and Kuhmos etc were reclassified as List 1C and hence not acceptable in Road Going Classes. All our TTs for classes were mainly from cars running these very competitive sticky tyres. many people did not want to fit inferior list 1B tyres and literally go slower so the SSOT produced Regs that allowed people to still run car with these list 1C tyres if the car s were Road Based. many people loved this as they still had some of these tyres on their cars. A consequence of this is that all clubs have to run these cars in Mod Prod classes along with slick shod cars. We would be in a very difficult situation if we banned list 1C tyres.. I do feel that some of the people saying they cant afford to do many rounds do actually spend money on other motorsport events ( which is their choice) but this means they are supporting another club rather than the Speed Series.

A new Christmas jumper?? That's going to blow my upgrade budget for 2018 Looking forward to the evening though. See you all there. Keith

I absolutely agree with keeping the target time system for the SS situation. I cannot see anything else working better without much larger entries at all events. Just tuning required!

You will have to wait and see how the mood takes me! Glutey

Ay we can do that!

We do still have a Novice championship and Novice awards in all the classes. This has not changed from previous years - the only difference is the use of one set of targets. I am sure Tigger will be working out the best way to display the results from the various view points.

That is a massive mistake in my opinion. It was a VERY nice oportunity for people with less time or money to commit... and has nothing to do with the experience... But I´ve been the only one moaning about it, so I must be wrong.

Absolutely the bestest series and competitors Probably too many awards.... Class win for 1 or 2 events - I definitely don't feel I earnt mine this year. Perhaps a minimum of 4 rounds to qualify for awards would be apropriate. With up to 5 for Novice Sprint Challenge, & up to 6 for Expert Sprint Challenge.

Terry, that’s what we all want, with huge interest in the 21st Birthday celebrations at Shelsley we need to get this sorted and not waste a golden opportunity to draw in a good few new competitors !

Have to say I hate PTFE tape, and generally anything to do with house hold plumbing, so being advised by WF to use it, my heart sank a bit. With regards to number of turns, I suspect it is a bit of trail and error. I probably failed so much in the past thinking that pipe fittings were tapered, and the tape was to help it close up the gaps as well as seal it, which I now think is not the case, and my previous attempts of 3 or 4 turns were not enough. I started on a non important fitting, and tried 4, 6, 8 and then 9 or 10'ish which then seemed a good interference fit. I suspect it very much depends on technique and how good you are with the stuff, and probably on the quality, width and thickness of the PTFE being used. At no point did I feel the fitting was approaching its limit, I'm sure there must be something like Stud-Lock that would do the job, but I'm sticking with this for now, now I have 4 or 5 fittings under my belt. As with many things I think its down to practice and confidence.

I've spent 2 years full Stoneleigh attendances in the outside marque promoting the speed series to members and potential members. The majority that expressed an interest asked about the types of Westfields that compete, how many are standard road cars, what the commitment was, what the costs were. Many, despite my 'Lardy One' being in front of them, still saw the pure sprint Westfields they may be up against as a detractor as they all see the 'beasts' depicted within Westfield World. 5/6 events for the Sprint Challenge is still a fairly big commitment, whilst doing 1 or 2 without a competition to aim for is'nt worth commitment (this isn't how I saw it when I started) "if all are scored in the same way" between classes is one of the issues highlighted earlier. TT's though will not be an influence on someone trying out their first sprint. TTs may influence keeping competitors involved. As competitors we are all passionate. We are giving feedback/opinion here as 'hooked' competitors from our individual viewpoints, BUT what do the general membership/AOs etc feel as to what may attract or not, What can we do to increase uptake! Until then perhaps we can only pontificate through our blinkers

Good point @John if it wasn't for the other members/competitors I wouldn't of even tried sprinting. Having read all the comments I'm of the opinion now that it doesn't really matter about a whole set of softer TT for novices. it will all balance itself out with real data.

I do my best efforts to write understandable ideas, even I know my engish is far from perfect... but isn't easy sometimes... sorry about that. If the rules aren't opent to discussion and we do have the best of the best available, not valuable opinion can be given, so, forget everything I said as obviously was out of context. I wonder how many people will you regulary see in classes A and B next season. *EDIT* (how many not novices will you see in A and B)... wich is even worst as you will have the least experienced people playing against the hardest target times of the whole series.

Maurici, muy bien, amo tu "spanglish" but seriously you make a very good point that I think only John can answer, but I'll try Are these Draft Regs for comments No, sorry but I didn't think they were, they were for correcting minor errors, the Team has worked very hard to get to where they have. It's not perfect, it doesn't suit everyone, not everyone likes it, etc etc.......... but at this moment in time no-one can think of a better system of scoring and believe me there have been hundreds if not thousands of hours put into trying to do this. The system we have with all it's "supposed" faults Actually is the one that works best for OUR championship in the view of OUR SSOT. Simple as that really.

Hi Paul Your words above not mine, I’m simply giving my opinion. Dont get me wrong I think it’s great that we offer a class for all our mates ( no longer Westfield driving mates ) to come along and enjoy the day and have a great time. I also think the verity of cars in J adds to interest for drivers and spectators alike, it’s a good thing. With my interest in single seaters I may well end up there myself! Just seems odd to me that we can run a separate score system for J but don’t have time to do the same for the novices, make of that what you will, that’s my opinion. Martin

Yum, a Christmas lunch too! Turkey and Cranberry icedcream?

Hi Martin, I understand your view on softer targets for novices. We did consider this when the decision was made but our focus was on the total package offered to Novices within the regs, not one single rule. Regs alone will not attract novices, there are many other considerations and most are in the hands of the novice themselves and no amount of regulatory considerations would change this fact. In my first year (a novice and like most, not done any form of motorsport previously and had done 3 track day to get to know the car) my first decision was whether I wanted to and if I could afford to enter the Speed Series - I didn't even look at the Regs. A friend in the village had a good friend who did compete in the SS and arranged a dinner for us to meet. That was Martin Hepworth, he became a good friend and mentor but sadly is no longer with us. Martin helped me ensure my car was eligible for the class and up to MSA regs. I have a competitive streak but the start of my season my focus was about getting up the hill or round the course in one piece and having fun. I was hooked after the first event! As the season progressed I started to look further forward and compare my times to the experts with the same class of car to see how I was doing and how much I needed to improve. Anyway I am sure it was comparisons with other drivers, in particular the experts, that gave me the drive and ambition to go faster. As the season progressed it emerged that I was a contender for the Novice Championship! So a bit more focus on which events I could do, in the end I won the Novice Championship on my last run of the last event of the season (Sunday of the October Ty Croes event). Was an amazing first year, better than I could have ever imagined in terms of friendships made, fun in the paddock and on the track and the end result in winning the Novice championship. But I will say again it was nothing to do with the regulations it was all to do with the people in the WSCC SS and their help and my comparison to experts to see what was needed to be done on the track that made is such a memorable year. I am not sure why you mention the J Classes - if it is because there is a separate scoring system for them then yes that's right and the only reason for that is that the standard class target approach did not work for J classes - it was not a level playing field within the J Classes, so a different method of devising targets was introduced. The Westfield classes (A to H) work well with the scoring system and one set of targets is all that is needed to provide a consistent and level playing field across those classes. J classes definitely do not take priority over the Westfield classes, the J classes are not eligible for the overall championship awards. It is easy to score and takes very little extra time to manage the results at events where J classes attend. Why do you mention this, am I missing something here? Paul

Caterham owners prompt there kids to do the same about Westfields

Many years ago , when my daughter was about 9 ish, we went to Stoneleigh. I had prompted her, with a nudge to say out loud ' Oerrrrr, Dad , look at the state of that one !' It was mostly heard walking past the Robin Hoods of those days , much to the wifes dismay . This is a true story Apparently my fatherhood 'tactics' needed work and to be honest still do and she is 24 now

Hope I will be allowed to run my old chariot up the hill. additionally, having organised Yorkshire Experience & several MSA events I am happy to offer my services. booked my Digs already in nearby Pub. Sadly not quite walking distance.

Just down from the loft with me Christmas jumper, I'm ready now See you all Thursday

Optional Christmas jumpers fine by me.

Having looked at the club calendar, can you?

All be thankful that you havn't got a dreadful scoring system like the HSA one. I like our system Ours rewards a fast driver no matter how many are in the class .

As usual Maurici we agree on everything, but with a slightly different perspective. Our cars ARE roadgoing cars, they have tax, MOT and insurance and get road use. What you're arguing here is to draw a distinction between TYPES of roadgoing cars. How do you do that exactly? Based on carpet, screen, fuel tank size? Set a minimum weight? Then how do you measure it and prove it at each event? My point is that the regs allow everyone to find a class that fits for them, and then to choose how competitive they want to be. I'm just saying go with it, but don't complain because you can't win if your car's a bit heavier or whatever. If you want to win, it takes practice and investment. Adam R is proof that skill is far more important than specification. Don't forget I started in class B on R888 with a crossflow engine and full screen, half cage etc, then made a load of car changes because I wanted to win and then only moved up to D because of reg changes that forced the move because of the tyres I'd invested in a year before being no longer allowed in B.