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My car is roadgoing and I enjoy driving it to our meets and on my local roads. It meets the class regs perfectly. I think it comes down to this - if you want to come out and play, have fun, meet great people and see how you/your car compares, this class structure works perfectly. If you want to win, plan to develop both car and driver which will take time and money to be a top performer in any class. But don't ask for the regs to be changed to meet your car - that puts way too much complication on the SSOT, the MSA and the sport. There has to come a point at which you make a decision, do I want to win, or do I want to just go out and play? But it's not fair to demand the regs get changed to be more suitable to "your" car.

One set of target times to fit all (novices and experts); target times may be the wrong name for them but we all know how they are used. In the main TTs are only there for the scoring system to work, they also do recognise the class records wherever possible. It does not matter what they are as long as they provide a levelish playing field across the classes and venues (there is no perfect scoring system, if there was then all championships would use the one perfect scoring system). We have a large amount of data to work for in all classes except A and B. SSOT have reviewed the little data we have on these two classes but as such it is not enough (with a small cross-section of drivers and many weather and types of course etc) to be able to sensibly use this data for establishing targets. The TTs scoring systems works perfectly well for Class and Overall scoring alike, it makes no difference. Competitors need to take the emotion away from wanting a target that is achievable and also a novice target that would enable a novice to win the overall championship (that is hardly a level playing field). IMHO a novice is really unlikely to be skilled and experienced enough to win the overall championship unless they had extensive experience in some other form of motorsport and then that would bring into question their novice status. Using a 2% adjustment on C & D targets is NOT done to "protect the old guard" it has been set on the basis of the little amount of data we have. @AdamR@maurici and @Mark (smokey mow)if you have extensive data on list 1A/B tyres and synchro gearboxes that you can share with SSOT then please do pass onto Terry Everall. One set of targets makes absolutely no difference to the position in class and overall, whether a novice or expert, it simplifies the scoring and the results website. The championship is run by volunteers and keeping things as simple as possible is the right thing to do. There is no other championship in the UK that scores experts and novices differently or tries to level the competition across classes. Many elements of our championship are included to make it attractive to competitors new to the sport compared to other championships. We have a reduced number of qualifying events to count and the Sprint Challenge exclusively for novices. There are also overall and class novice awards. Then there is the unparalleled support given to novices in our championship by the more experienced competitors.

I agree Dave, attracting new members has always got to be a priority, but in my personal opinion that doesn't need the classes or TT's to be messed about with - if you want to have a go, it IS easy to get started. What we should maybe get better at is exposure and more 'practice' events to draw people in, much like the great Shelsley event that is happening this year. I know Martin got started as a result of an introduction to sprinting event and my personal route in was through the drift event combined with loads of advice/encouragement from my area friends. If we could do anything differently to encourage members to have a go it would be running 1-2 of these intro to Speed Series events a year and letting people have a go to catch the bug. Don't get me wrong, I do get the point about feeling accomplishment from getting near to or beating the TT and that was my main concern a couple of years ago, but my opinion has changed and now for me it is about personal challenge and having good fun on the day, knowing that whatever comes out points or time wise, you've done your best and had a blast. Slightly separate point but worth mentioning.

BUT 41 Westfields competed in 2016 and 43 in 2017. Some expert classes have got stronger, but With just 3 Novices in 1 class competing for the 2017 Novice Championship and there being 5 in 2016. No 20% increase there!!! And that is what concerns me --- the strength of competition in future years. (not about me! Barny.) Hence my initial comments regarding attracting newbies into 'roadgoing' Unobtainable TTs matter less, IF a level playing field across all classes. The SS team have done an admirable job within a very difficult situation. Without them there would be no SS - so MANY MANY THANKS.

Happy to help @Paul Morcom & @terry everall 2010 Castle Combe 189.09 (wet) 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R) Silverstone Stowe 122.89 Toyo 1A tyres (Toyo T1R) Curborough (single lap) 38.09 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R) Lydden1 94.52 Toyo 1A Tyres (Toyo T1R) Lydden2 93.40 1A tyres (Toyo T1R) Brands Hatch 102.47 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) 2011 Silverstone Stowe 119.51 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) Snetterton 100 107.84 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) Brands Hatch 102.97 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) 2012 Crystal Palace 41.43 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) 2013 Castle Combe 178.47 (snow AM but drying track PM) 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) Crystal Palace 41.43 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) 2014 Crystal Palace 37.89 (wet, shortened circuit) 1B Tyres (Yokohama A021R) All events were completed with a full windscreen, carpets, comfy seats and a standard fuel tank half filled (Car weight 582kg), 1600cc engine, 129.3bhp (flywheel) @6609 rpm

I agree, and I don't think the way the series is set up is encouraging this at the moment, which is a shame. I have made my thoughts known before about this. Here's my last suggestion: how about making novice target times more realistic and not having them count towards the full / main championship? That protects the 'old guard' so they can take away the pots at the end of year, yet still gives newbies the chance of scoring decent points. You can defend the current system all you want with comments about being close to other competitors on the day, but people want to feel like they at least have a decent chance of getting near to the times that are 'expected' for their spec of car (that is what a target time is, right?). If they are getting high 80s / low 90s on the points then they don't feel good about the time, effort and money they have expended. The feel good is what keeps people coming back. Haven't seen TTs yet but would strongly encourage you to look at Class A and B target times for the coming season, using actual data where it is available. A lot of newbies would end up in these classes and some of the calculated ones are stupendous - both novice and expert. 2% slower than Class C and D is a joke. Again I know this is to protect the top boys, and you don't want the lower classes winning overall, but IMO it should be a level playing field throughout. Apologies for the 'harsh' message but I have a feeling I was too subtle with my comments / thoughts last year. I'm not hiding behind a screen here either, I feel strongly about this and would happily put these words forward in real life too.

As usual Maurici we agree on everything, but with a slightly different perspective. Our cars ARE roadgoing cars, they have tax, MOT and insurance and get road use. What you're arguing here is to draw a distinction between TYPES of roadgoing cars. How do you do that exactly? Based on carpet, screen, fuel tank size? Set a minimum weight? Then how do you measure it and prove it at each event? My point is that the regs allow everyone to find a class that fits for them, and then to choose how competitive they want to be. I'm just saying go with it, but don't complain because you can't win if your car's a bit heavier or whatever. If you want to win, it takes practice and investment. Adam R is proof that skill is far more important than specification. Don't forget I started in class B on R888 with a crossflow engine and full screen, half cage etc, then made a load of car changes because I wanted to win and then only moved up to D because of reg changes that forced the move because of the tyres I'd invested in a year before being no longer allowed in B.

@Paul Morcom All the data I can have from my car, being double drived and driven by myself is available for the SSOT already, I don´t have anymore info. In fact I have to come to the clubs webpage every time I need info to compare my results. Sorry I can´t help anymore. It is true that we haven´t seen the TT yet. But the simple fact that the A and B tt are calculated instead of using real data where available, is a problem for me. And if is not real data, leave the system work by itself. New class, let the car stablish the times and in a few years you should have a balanced times there. Unfortunately there is not only tyres between classes, so place a 2-3% because 1b tyres are less sticky isn´t enought. I have to dissagree here, despite I´m one of the "cheaters" to use a car that fits in the category instead of a pure roadgoing car. The only thing that differs from your car and mine from a race car, is that they have some sort of lighting, and we haven´t thrown enought money on it to go to dogboxes, and stupidly expensive electronics and so... But we use race engines, fully stripped down cars with cage. No passanger seat (yes, I do use a foam too, but that doesn´t means it has passenger seat), and despite they are usable for the road, and trully enjoyable to drive, you must agree that your car, mines, or even Adam´s one(a bit on the edge) are quite far of the average "roadgoing" cars in the club.... Probably that pushes away more novice with trully roadgoing cars. Cars like Johns (Panda) Smeg´s or Mark´s dont have a single chance against any of our cars "made on purpose" to fit the category, leave alone try to be anywhere near to the TT. If roadgoing classes were more attractive for people with a road car and a RAC bar (and thats it) problably it would pull much more people to it. Your case isn´t that relevant, as you was actually in class D, but im sure you get my point "against" your statement. Big boys and average competitors are already there, fully commited and with very healthy entry lists... To really ask for the support of the average driver/owner of the club, I think the term roadoging should be re-defined (despite that would mean that my car don´t ever fit the regs anymore). In fact, you and me being novices, have been in several occasions above the experts (that will hurt) with non roadgoing cars, weather dependant, of course... that would not happen AT ALL with trully roadgoing car with its 600kg, soaked carpets, windscreen 100hp less and chunky seats.

Thanks for your feedback Paul; 1.6.2 would also be used in the event of a class tie. A good point and I will pick up with John before submitted to MSA. Cheer....Paul@John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary

Paul, I think the regs read poorly in this area as they imply this will apply to each class at every event where more than one class competitor exceeds the target time, not to the overall championship, could they be clarified? Maybe reading "in the event of a tie for the overall championship"

thanks for the offer of help Ian but I think the dash2 design is a bit dated now so I think the only way to go is with the aim setup

TBH I don't know yours, hence the question emoji indicating there may be more. There's been some Speed Series banter about what is the true/real roadgoing spirit used regularly on road and what just meets the technical requirements to enter class. The majority of members Westfields used regularly, e.g. I did 4000 miles last MOT, have windscreen / wipers / heaters / some form of weather protection. @AdamR 's, same engine, is 100kg lighter making mine the 'Lardy One' sometimes refured to in WW and forum. This is the handicap many potential newby sprinters see, and along with what appear to be unobtainable TT's deters many from 'having a go'. This is from real world conversations I've had with members at WSCC meets / Stoneleigh etc. when trying to persuade them to enter Blyton to experience what sprinting is like.

And that is why I was moving from B to D... No way you can do the proposed times (or anywhere near) with the current B2 tyres with a roadgoing Car. I suscribe 100% the words of Adam. And I was aiming to the sprint challenge this year, just for the fun to finally win something from Adam... and current changes put completely down any motivation I could have to go out for a last season... now looks unlikely I´ll commit much to be honest, and despite I´m technically allowed as I only have 15 events in my shoulders, No way im steping down to novices...

Yeah but he's small... Slasher, you're going soft. Now, where's my shandy...

Yanto Happy to collect for you too.

... currently the only two 'true' roadgoing Westfield's sprinting We need more!

snow of hands

and also how we doing it this year it will go back to 2016 way of displaying the results so you can see your time verses the whole of the field. so If you take myself and @Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AOwe can have an easy to calculate rivervally even though I'm expert he is novice (I wasn't chosen to this reason); and actually see the novice championship as a important part of the competition. Cheers John Panda

Please remember that novices will still be able to look at their personal best times and novice class position, sprint challenge ( for novice only) and novice championship places will not be affected at all

reminds me of that Del boy classic. Del: Put your coat on luv .. Mrs: why? are you taking me out ? Del: No ! I'm going out and I'm turning the heating off ;-)

this car is local to me I think shifnal way? sure somebody I know did abit of work on this like fitting the raceline sump

say all the boys at Bentley!

Has anyone got that picture of the BMW with chains... but just on the front wheels

Not sure at the moment. Delayed pulling the car apart, with the plan of trying to start that week and do it while I’m off. So in theory, I won’t be mobile that weekend.

I don't think we can make this one