Ford 1600GT donor engine

[Tonsko]

Hi all,

I'm off to look at my first westie this weekend. I know everyone says don't buy the first car you look at, but I'm really, really bad at that, and unless it has a few obvious teething problems, then I know I will end up buying it.

I have, however, been looking around for about 6 months, and this is the second that I have actually wanted to go and see. The first was sold before I got there.

The principle reason is budget, of course. I initially set my my budget at around 8K, but I have since thought again and don't really want to spend more than 5. This one I'm looking at more than comes in under that, as the chap wants shot as he's buying a new house. That, and the age old story of not having time to drive it and what have you.

He's had it for 2 years, and is a detailer by trade. Chatting to him on the phone has told me that he's the type of person who looks after things and wants things to be 'just so' - in that respect he hasn't tuned his too much, but has done things like taking it to pieces, repainting it all, back together, re-wrapped all the electrics in the bay, replaced the 'overflow' tank from a placcy one to a chrome one, replaced starter motor for a better one, all that kind of thing. Little details.

So, I'm talking myself into buying it, of course. I will be driving it/taken out in it, checking for leaks when cold, hot, starting issues etc.

I suppose what I'm really asking is that, having read the buyer's thread posted by the gentleman with the orange westie and understanding that no-one engine is better than another, has anyone got experience running one of these with the Cortina 1600GT block rebored to 1800, coupled with a 5-speed Sierra box? Any potential pitfalls to look out for? He says it's been rolling roaded to 138 BHP or thereabouts.

Note about power - I'm not too bothered that it seems 'down on power' compared to modern engines, the power-weight ratio seems more than enough for a first time buyer, to me! Added to this, I have not driven a rear-wheel drive car for many years, and am used to my (Golf) R32's road holding, so don't want to get something that will spin me into a bush at the first corner and a little bit of over-enthusiam

In a way, I'm looking for justification, which is nonsense, as it's solely down to me. But I'm silly like that.

What I'm really looking for is that are there any obvious gotchas I should be looking to keep an eye out for with this engine/gearbox combo? This is a 'pre-lit' model.

Cheers all!

[Neil2008]

One point you may wish to clarify with the seller is that of the engine size? In "Rebuilding and Tuning Ford's Kent Crossflow Engine" by Peter and Valerie Wallage they state:

"The maxium safe overbore is plus 0.090 in, which will increase the capacity of thre 1600 engine to what is commonly called a 1700, though the exact figure is 1691cc."

I think they are refering to standard 711m engine.  I beleive 1800 is possible if the block is an 'AX' one.

Regards

[Tonsko]

Righto, will contact him. Thanks!

[flyingbanana]

As ^

Block casting number is on the exhaust side, at the bellhousing end.

You want to see 711M6015BA, as this started life as a 1600, and will go out to "1700" okay.

The 711M6015AA is the 1300 block

The AX blocks were later and can go to 1800.

The engine number would have been stamped on a small platform on the top surface of the block, just near the thermostat bulge (front of the block, exhaust side).

Sometimes the number can disappear and don;t worry too much if it has, but you can date the engine from it.

Usual buyer checks for an older vehicle.

Crossflows can be a bit leaky but no excuse for dirty oil/ low level of fluids/ leaks/backfiring.

Poor hot start might be static advance on the limit (should not be a problem if running mapped ignition-i.e. no distributor, and Megajolt fitted).

Don't be afraid to excersise it fully (but don't exceed owner's rev-limit) in a straight line if you are worried about losing it on a corner.

Records of work carried out add confidence, and you may need them if problems crop up or you wish to tinker.

Prelit bodywork might be harder to acquire than newer stuff, so check it is all in good condition.

Good Luck.

Looking at a westfield is a bit like looking at a puppy, so I know what you mean about trying to rationalise the decision

[Tonsko]

Many thanks ! He says there's bags of receipts from the work carried out (from before he purchased).

Email sent is as follows:

"Do you have any more information about the engine re-bore from 1600 to 1800?

Looking at the ford kent crossflow engine stats,  a technical PDF states, "Whatever capacity you've got, the 711 s the one you want — except in the case of the Fiesta. On the side of the block you'll find a T number cast-in — this is the number of that run of casting and goes up to 20. In theory, you need the highest number because it's said these are the thickest and therefore best for a rebore. Although there's no proof this is correct.

Oversize pistons are available up to +0.090 inch (2.286 mm) which, together with a bore of 83.2 mm gives 1688cc — also known as 1700."

Could you confirm the actual CC of the engine please? As you've owned it for 2 years, I guess you've had no problems at all with reliability!"

[flyingbanana]

I think the "T" number bit is an urban myth.

From what I have found on the wonderweb, it seems that the higher the number, the later the block, FWIW.

Armchair engineers (or people with high T numbers...) seem to have a theory that suggests the walls of blocks with a high T-number would be thicker than those with a lower T-number.

I think it reasonable that a newer block might have undergone less corrosion internally (assuming all blocks have led a similar life), so the bores are less likely to break through at higher capacity, but as-cast there was probably no difference.

There will be block-to-block variations depending on subtle movement of the cores during casting, but that is unrelated to the T-number.

[Tonsko]

Yet more lessons to beware the PDFs that you find on the interwizzle!

Oh well, I will see what he comes back with.

Just been speaking to my dad - he used to own an old Cortina 1600 E with twin webers - said that if they go out of balance, it can be a problem to get them back in. Is this something to think about?

[a4gom]

I'm thought 1740 /1760 was possible with the 711 block but it was a bore and sleeve job not just overbore? Could be wrong though it's many moons since.

[flyingbanana]

^Perhaps, on the limit, so you'll have no option but a new block if/when it is worn, but that could be many years on low usage of course.

Tonsko- Maybe, but I am only stating my opinions too, and I am only a newbie.

I bought mine slightly on a whim/ very in the dark over details/ to satisfy a long time urge/ knowing of the car in question and its owner for four or five years.

I expected the car to be good, but knew it had some niggles, but it seemed to be basically sound with some sensible jobs done on it, and the right price for me.

Carb balancing does not need to be a big issue (and twin Webers are not exactly unusual, so there is plenty of info and experience out there), but there is no point trying to fix something built on shakey foundations, so ensure you are happy that it is sound enough for you to buy at the price agreed, then trawl the archives on here for 101 different opinions...

I wanted something that worked, and I was also happy to do some tinkering, and so far that is what I have got, but some of the threads I have seen scare me, so you have to convince yourself.

As ever, see if you can get somebody with experience to look with you or, even better, somebody who hates the idea of a Westfield, as they ought to spot any defects easily!

[Neil2008]

If the car your interested in is the one advertised on Pistonheads then a couple of other points to check are:

1 I don't think it is a Prelit due to the swage line - a minor point and may be irrelevant

2 I checked the reg on "mycarcheck.com" it stated that

"The vehicle RFU978G, a Ford Cortina De Luxe (Convertible), is on our database. To discover its history please choose a check below."  

Assuming  I read the reg correctly the check suggests that the car may not be correctly registered.  I don't want to be alarmist, but it would be worth checking.

You may be interested to know I bought a Prelit Westfield this summer.  It was bought on a whim, but so far so good!

[Tonsko]

Interesting. Yes it is that one - what could be the result of it being improperly registered?

[flyingbanana]

"Apparently" quite common for older kit cars to have mismatches such as Neil2008 has pointed out.

I did a fair bit of research re. chassis numbers/ V5 problems etc. when I was buying, and it seems that there are some horror stories, some easy corrections made, and a lot of people who just go with it, so you'll have to satisfy yourself on this one I think.

One thing I would pay attention to is getting the chassis number off the chassis itself (not the build plate) then you have something more concrete to go on.

With the chassis number you can at least check with Westfield to see when it was made, though older records are more basic.

As a quick check, I think a post-Lit body will have "SE" moulded into the front face of the scuttle panel (inside the engine bay where the pedals etc. come through).

[Neil2008]

Having looked more closely at the advert the seller is claiming that the vehicle is tax exempt.  This suggests to me that it is not correctly registered.  I don't know what the implications of this are (probably best to do a Google search), however worse case would be having to IVA the vehicle and as IVA is designed for self built vehicles, the fact that you did not build it could mean that it is harder to get through the test as compared to one which has been self built.

[peterg]

I don't believe that's a pre-lit at all, it has the later 'post-lit' bodywork (swaged bonnet and rear wings etc) and is supposed to have been built in 1992 but pre-lits were stopped being made in 1988...

As above, the car is clearly being taxed and insured as a classic and is probably thought by the insurance company to be an old Cortina so all sorts of problems could arise should you have an accident  

Personally I'd steer clear as there are bound to be some nice cars coming up for sale over the winter around your budget (there are nicer ones up for around the £5k mark that might take an offer) and it'll give you time to save a bit more cash anyway  

like this one - if you want a quick track type car

or this as a slightly more road orientated car - plus it's a wide body

[Tonsko]

Just done the car check thing, Engine size matches, changed colour 3 times and plate a couple. The ins. quote I have is on a 1600-1800 rebored cortina engine, and it being mounted in a westie. Should the V5 reflect this?