Terry Everall Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 I havent said anything yet! but I could Quote
Mark Stanton Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 ang on Mr E ......... more pringles needed here Quote
Terry Everall Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Not enough time tonight but maybe tomorrow Quote
cast iron Posted August 25, 2010 Author Posted August 25, 2010 Adrian Again someone has missed the point this isnt against the target times Its about everyone in all classes being treat identically at the same event. the current system does not do this, therfore people doing identically well in there respective class can come away with different points towards the overall championship If target times existed for all classes then all judged against target times If no target times then all judged against 17 points. So therfore, with 6 rounds remaining the series is far from over and concluded and im not having a go at the current leaders who i all know and respect as dam good drivers suggesting a rule to suggest I dont compete is pretty f**king personal and shocking, just because I make a point. Quote
V 8 Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 I think that is a good point Mark, and would like to think that ACW has missed it, comments a bit out of order if not. Trouble is, some target times are well off the mark, and some will also continue to be next year unless they are amended to reflect a true time for the class by some formula or other. If an event has no target times for some classes, but has them for others, then either times should be "manufactured" with an acceptable formula, or every class runs 1.6e. My personal opinion is the same as John's, in that there will be less of a problem next year as many times have been set this year by quick drivers, but any existing anomolies need to be identified and corrected. Edited to add:- but as someone else has alluded to, we can do nothing this year, but use it to learn for the future Quote
nlash Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 @ Mark - OP: However suggesting or negating the achievement of whoever is in the running for overall SS champion because you dont like the points system, even if tongue in cheek or otherwise is totally un-sportsman like behavior IMHO. so after that comment for me whatever rules means you not competeing gets my Vote. Sadly, there is nothing 'sportsman like' about this comment either. Mark has merely made an observation and although, regretfully, it has been spotted late in the season, it should be considered and like it or not, it places some doubt over the validity of the overall championship placings. Quote
ACW Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 suggesting a rule to suggest I dont compete is pretty f**king personal and shocking, just because I make a point. Mark - That was a poor show of me, I dont want to fall out, and clearly (or maybe not) this was a throw away comment and not actually part of my personal suggestions for next year. However let their be no doubt that this attempting to demonstrate how poor I think your OP was. You cant change this years rules. Thats not the SSOT or anyone else being negative or anything else. Its a fact that it would not be sensible or proper and even if 113% of the drivers agree 103% of the time this is not something that the MSA would consider. So with that in mind for this year we have to go with your negatively spun option 1. What I take issue with is your Option3. Clearly you feel the target time system hasnt promoted someone into the close finish that we are seeing this year. Or you feel the 'wrong' chap is going to win the series. Put your c!!k on the block - why specifically do you suggest option 3. You actually think that the best outcome this year for the speed series is to forgo a champion for 2010. Well dont be surprised if those that run the series fell that's somewhat negative. Back to what might be done for next year - put forward your suggestion with examples. I dont understand your point right now, because its kinda open ended and I'd like to see examples of where an problem has occurred. I might be wrong, but at the front end of the championship its the events where 103% rule is kicking in that causing some issue as well as some perceived soft target times. To win the championship as with most previous years, you need 10 maximums, therefore anywhere you are getting sub 17 points you need to drop. This year there are only a few events where there is no target, but there have been a good few events that have become that way due to 103% rule. You can see from my points that I have myself suggested the wet difference is too large from the perspective of the competitiveness of the SS. 113% is far too large. My suggestion - Explain your alternatives for NEXT year, put forward CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions. These will be useful for the SSOT when they are asking drivers for an alternative system. What p'''ses me off every year (although to be fair I havent followed more recent years, but I bet they are there) is that about this time we get the debate and there are those commenting that I feel would actually prefer the SS champion decided by X-factor style phone in votes. Quote
ACW Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 @ Mark - OP: However suggesting or negating the achievement of whoever is in the running for overall SS champion because you dont like the points system, even if tongue in cheek or otherwise is totally un-sportsman like behavior IMHO. so after that comment for me whatever rules means you not competeing gets my Vote. Sadly, there is nothing 'sportsman like' about this comment either. Mark has merely made an observation and although, regretfully, it has been spotted late in the season, it should be considered and like it or not, it places some doubt over the validity of the overall championship placings. I agree with your first part, and I apologize. I would like you to explain how so your second part - How so ? Quote
ACW Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 edited to say - howcome I don't figure in your list of oustanding drivers Aide Paul, you have missed my point. All the drivers in the SS are good drivers. I only illustrated those that at this point in the championship that are likely winners - people that their fellow sportsmen want to rob of their chance of overall champion, or worse somehow devalue it. I consider you a good driver (4 secs a lap off barry's sprint lap time at Llandow hooning around on hard rubber in a car youve never driven before with a funny box) However moreover you are someone who is prepared to put their head above the parapit and put your time into running things for the benefit of others. hug> Quote
V 8 Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Ade, methinks you are getting a tad defensive here and still missing the point. My take on Mark's post is that someone may get a string of 17 points due to there being no target time in their class and being a sole runner, while a really quick driver may not get near their time in their own class. He goes further to cite Pembrey where he got 17 points instead of the 14 or so he feels he should. It could be possible to have a SS championship contender with a string of solely attended and new target time results. I don't believe either he or Nigel were having a pop at you or the other contenders. Take a chill pill :-) Quote
ACW Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Dont need a chill pill - am on hols in south of France. If he were having a pop at me, I wouldnt be bothering to reply. I never normally get involved in this stuff. I can see the point being made totally - but who is this contender this year that requires negation of the overall champion ? If its a theoretical argument with the existing points system - yeah its a problem. But the O/P suggests the issue means the overall champion this year doesn't count in his opinion. - it is this that irritates me so. Not for me being there are done it, but for those who have a chance and will have worked damn hard at it and as Ive said IMHO all deserve it. Rather than there being no champion I think as in previous years there are many the deserve the accolade based on their performance. Quote
stephenh Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 I dont think anyone should be getting too hot under the collar here, as SS drivers, or potential SS drivers even, we all have an obvious interest in wanting to see a scoring system which is as fair as possible. However, obviously we cant change the system part way thro' the season as has already been said. Secondly, we certainly shouldn't question or undermine the ability and effort of those drivers who are up there in the running for overall Championship, and runners up. I can really only comment with first hand knowledge on those in my own class, and I know that the 5 class F drivers in the top 10 are all b****y quick drivers. I know I'm trying and I know how much quicker they are than me, so whichever of the class F drivers comes out in the top 2 or 3, they deserve it. I also see how quick the best of the class G and H drivers are, respect to them. As to what would be a better scoring system, if any, I'm not prepared to attempt to put forward a strong view because I have only been in the SS for about 13 months now, so haven't got experience of the alternatives. However, if we are to have a debate or vote at the end of the season I will listen with interest to those who have much more experience of this great championship than me, and I would be guided by their reasoned arguments. Be clear however, when the time comes, it isn't constructive to say that the present system isn't fair, you've got to put forward your argument as to what would be fairer, and why, so that you can convince those like me who will sit on the sideline and listen to all the different views, as well as those who in the end have to draft the rules. Quote
nlash Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 I would like you to explain how so your second part - How so ? Because quite clearly, as Mark points out, where there has been events where certain classes have no recorded target time to aim for, the winning competitor at that event is restricted to 17 points whereas other classes at the same event where target times are there to beat, the winning competitor can gain over 17 points and therefore, in the overall championship competition, has a greater contribution to his bid. The competitor restricted to 17 may have drove out of his skin at the said event, along with the competitor who possibly scored more by beating a target time, but due to the current rules, the two class winners cannot be fairly compared (IMO) with regard to the overall championship. Quote
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Nigel sums up Marks point perfectly but as previosly stated once the MSA have approved regs which include the scoring system, they cannot be altered mid season. The best option is therefore to offer constructive ideas for next years regs to avoid the scenario which is what has clearly been requested by several people including our nice Mr chairman PS - Ade - I thought Steve D had got hold of your login for a moment Quote
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