Potential results problem

[stephenh]

I haven't changed my font, dont think I know how to!

Ignore me? At your peril!  

[cast iron]

still missing the point

I'm not complaining about target times!

on the day if a target time isnt avaialble for a class then all classes should go back to the old score system for that event  elese you get a disparity in the overall results. Its OK waiting till next year, but it means this years champion may not be a true reflection

[peterg]

QUOTE

Its OK waiting till next year, but it means this years champion may not be a true reflection

Not even F1 would change the points allocation system mid-season    

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Mark, The MSA have to approve the regs at the start of the year before they are issued and changing them now is not an option as far as I understand

[Tubs]

Its OK waiting till next year, but it means this years champion may not be a true reflection

Not even F1 would change the points allocation system mid-season    

Care to put a wager on that?  

Tubs

[Tubs]

All contributions will be gratefully received - whether in person, by mail, carrier pigeon or whatever.  Perhaps we can even persuade Stephenh to say something

I must admit, I did expect a reply to my post.

Tubs

[SteveD]

Can I go

No

Bugga

[Paul Edden]

Mark - nobody on the SSOT is missing the point over 1.6e - but I am advocating a complete "drains up" at the end of the season - 1.6e and all.

Tubs - they can do all sorts of things in F1 - coz hundreds of people are paid millions of pounds to make it work.  

Over here, most of us fit this in between our jobs and trying to run our own businesses and deciding what to do next with our day if we are retired.  

Not going to bang on about the "run by volounteers" thing - my long term aim is to get this debated in preparation for next year - not via this forum necessarily, but in an organised and constructive way at a meeting or several; at the end of this season such that we can announce the plan for next year as quickly as possible.

[Paul Edden]

I haven't changed my font, dont think I know how to!

Ignore me? At your peril!  

Stephen,

I have now learnt to "unignore" you!

How very dare I

[SteveD]

Ahaaa the unignore button ! I thought it was quiet on here

[Scottish Bloke]

BANG  

[Delboy]

QUOTE

Someone in the know will correct me if I am wrong but my understanding was that target times were introduced as a way to give single class competitors at events a chance of winning good points. previously if there was less than 2 the most that could be scored was 16 points even if they broke the track record at an event which was grossly unfair. Basically it gave them a way of having something to beat in order to gain good or full points without cruising round and bagging 17 points. From that aim it seems to work except where there is only 1 driver in a class and it is wet and they get 17 points anyway but you cannot pre judge the weather.

Whatever happens next year, the current target times have had a good battering this year and will be much harder to beat next year so things will even themselves out and reign in big points scores at most venues.

The only thing that I see having been a issue is the 103% and 113% ruling which has come into play in the dry and in my opinion wrongly robbed people of bonus points for breaking the target times. That kind of defeats the object of sprinting in my opinion. Cut this ruling out and things will much clearer.

Just my personal obsevations as an innocent but interested party.........

I with John on this one!

Del

[ACW]

I have little to say on the matter but:

1. You cant change it mid season - and frankly no one has come up with a better system for this year yet anyway. Why should someone with no target time effect those that are beating target times set over many competitors over many years. Every class has sufficient rounds woith target times to do the job. At the end of the day if you want to win go faster.

2. The target time was to overcome classes with few on the day. I havent competed for a long time till this year, but I remember too well the issue of finding there was only one or two in a class and having to basically throw away that event regardless of how well or otherwise you drove it. Now I can choose not to do an event at the beginning of the season due to no existing target time, or specifically to do it depending on ones expected outcome. This it has succeeded at.

3. The target time system has been a success overall. Indeed IMHO the fact there is a target to aim at means you drive harder against that to get more points that you would have done of old. Speaking for myself I have been pushed as much by target times as other competitors.

4. This year more people have exceeded 103% that expected. This with hindsight is too much bearing in mind just how damn competitive and how close a class is often in the speed series (one reason I choose this over any other sprint championship). In addition 113% for wet is also far to simple as many competitors can manage much better wet performance even in fully soggy conditions. This is to some extent a first year issue, but also a competitiveness of SS over other championships.

5. I would consider a max score rule to prevent the series being won by small number of mega scores rather than consistency. For example a maximum score of 18 points (1 sec under target). I would also consider making target a % rather than absolute as it is easy to get a second under target at somewhere like hethel but significantly harder at curborough.

6. I would revert to 1.6e only for when no competitor is within 2% of target or similar. at the end of the day a wet or changeable event is going to end up a dropper for a potential SS champion.

I know from assisting the SSOT that Nick and Paul want to open up for as wider consultation amongst the drivers as possible towards the end of the season. I personally dont agree with this and have said as much - All you end up with is a circle that is then impossible to square. At the end of this process at best you might end up with a consensus result that pleases 50% at best which means that 50% of people feel they have been consulted and ignored.

Their approach is laudable, but we all have to go into the consultation with eyes wide open and understand we might not like the result. At the end of the day trying to equalize performance in different classes is never going to be totally possible. Less classes may help, and this may be forced by outside pressures such as MSA tyre rules.

@ Mark - OP:

However suggesting or negating the achievement of whoever is in the running for overall SS champion because you dont like the points system, even if tongue in cheek or otherwise is totally un-sportsman like behavior IMHO. so after that comment for me whatever rules means you not competeing gets my Vote.

Barney has always had astounding results and nearly won the series last year. His results this year speak for themselves beating mostly his own fast target times or equaling them.

Matt - In the nicest possible way you wont find a more anally analytical driver out there. He has beat massively hard target times and put big differences in time between himself and the rest of the field. He is a setup guru always willing to share his experiences and keep eeking the last out the car.

Barry - First year after many years competing in basically standard road car, standard engine. After bolting in a race engine but otherwise a really standard heavy car has gone seconds faster everywhere straight out the box. He amazes me how comfortable he has been straight away knocking 5 seconds plus of his previous PBs.

Mark - Good consistent target time beater. Just needs to beat barney some more times.

One of these will win - or me . Are they the best for this year - yes absolutely. Every year the series has been won by good drivers. They have been better drivers that have either not had lady luck or fate and the rules hasnt shined on them, but to negate this is very poor form IMHO.

[Mark Stanton]

Well said Mr ACW ......  2002 SS Champion and Mr Sportsman of the year 2003      

[Paul Edden]

I have little to say on the matter but:

1. You cant change it mid season - and frankly no one has come up with a better system for this year yet anyway. Why should someone with no target time effect those that are beating target times set over many competitors over many years. Every class has sufficient rounds woith target times to do the job. At the end of the day if you want to win go faster.

2. The target time was to overcome classes with few on the day. I havent competed for a long time till this year, but I remember too well the issue of finding there was only one or two in a class and having to basically throw away that event regardless of how well or otherwise you drove it. Now I can choose not to do an event at the beginning of the season due to no existing target time, or specifically to do it depending on ones expected outcome. This it has succeeded at.

3. The target time system has been a success overall. Indeed IMHO the fact there is a target to aim at means you drive harder against that to get more points that you would have done of old. Speaking for myself I have been pushed as much by target times as other competitors.

4. This year more people have exceeded 103% that expected. This with hindsight is too much bearing in mind just how damn competitive and how close a class is often in the speed series (one reason I choose this over any other sprint championship). In addition 113% for wet is also far to simple as many competitors can manage much better wet performance even in fully soggy conditions. This is to some extent a first year issue, but also a competitiveness of SS over other championships.

5. I would consider a max score rule to prevent the series being won by small number of mega scores rather than consistency. For example a maximum score of 18 points (1 sec under target). I would also consider making target a % rather than absolute as it is easy to get a second under target at somewhere like hethel but significantly harder at curborough.

6. I would revert to 1.6e only for when no competitor is within 2% of target or similar. at the end of the day a wet or changeable event is going to end up a dropper for a potential SS champion.

I know from assisting the SSOT that Nick and Paul want to open up for as wider consultation amongst the drivers as possible towards the end of the season. I personally dont agree with this and have said as much - All you end up with is a circle that is then impossible to square. At the end of this process at best you might end up with a consensus result that pleases 50% at best which means that 50% of people feel they have been consulted and ignored.

Their approach is laudable, but we all have to go into the consultation with eyes wide open and understand we might not like the result. At the end of the day trying to equalize performance in different classes is never going to be totally possible. Less classes may help, and this may be forced by outside pressures such as MSA tyre rules.

@ Mark - OP:

However suggesting or negating the achievement of whoever is in the running for overall SS champion because you dont like the points system, even if tongue in cheek or otherwise is totally un-sportsman like behavior IMHO. so after that comment for me whatever rules means you not competeing gets my Vote.

Barney has always had astounding results and nearly won the series last year. His results this year speak for themselves beating mostly his own fast target times or equaling them.

Matt - In the nicest possible way you wont find a more anally analytical driver out there. He has beat massively hard target times and put big differences in time between himself and the rest of the field. He is a setup guru always willing to share his experiences and keep eeking the last out the car.

Barry - First year after many years competing in basically standard road car, standard engine. After bolting in a race engine but otherwise a really standard heavy car has gone seconds faster everywhere straight out the box. He amazes me how comfortable he has been straight away knocking 5 seconds plus of his previous PBs.

Mark - Good consistent target time beater. Just needs to beat barney some more times.

One of these will win - or me . Are they the best for this year - yes absolutely. Every year the series has been won by good drivers. They have been better drivers that have either not had lady luck or fate and the rules hasnt shined on them, but to negate this is very poor form IMHO.

Crikey!

I would hate to be locked in a room with you when you have a lot to say on the matter

eidted to say - howcome I don't figure in your list of oustanding drivers Aide