I can't eply to "For Sale" or contact sellers

[Blatman]

In desperation I posted on another thread asking for someone to PM the seller and I also mentioned (fair enough more tact could have been used) that I thought the system was not to the benefit of the seller and was given a pretty hostile response, and no-one contacted the seller for me.

But you didn't think to drop a mail to the forum moderators to ask them if there may be some way to help? No, you simply decided to turn up, have a go and decide that it was daft when it didn't go your way. Do you do this in your real life as well? You get to a members only club, try to blag your way in by asking *everyone* inside if they'll grab someome for you to chat to about something. Just 'cos it's the internet, don't think that basic rules and (dare I say it) manners and a bit of respect for the organisation, it's rules and it's members shoudn't apply.

[Guest]

Being Fair blatters , thats a little harsh .....

when it comes to buying , people tend to get put off by any obstacle , i know i do it for a living , you have to make things as simple as possible .

The easy answer and i think most would do this anyway is either a pistonheads advert , or putting contact details on .

For me its not the advert thing thats an issue , just the ability to PM someone if i need to , there are lots of reasons to do that , none sinister .

Blatters , the rights to Pm or not were revoked over 1 incident , not many issues of abuse as far as i see it , so really there is just that 1 incident to focus on .

With regard to the auction , your right its not much effort , i am not aware of wether a member can PM me but it would be easier not to put an email address on a forum for many .

Personally i have no issue with doing it ..

My email , mobile number are all available online if people look ,and i don't fear them being public .

My work one is advertised all over the place .

but you see what i mean .... the rest of the non member restrictions i have no issue with , however PM's i think are actually useful to a forum .

Don't want this to turn in a popcorn eating debate as its not the issue , i just think that some things are not thought through quite as well as people may want , and i have to say the pm issue was complained about by members as well as non members .

[GreigM]

In desperation I posted on another thread asking for someone to PM the seller and I also mentioned (fair enough more tact could have been used) that I thought the system was not to the benefit of the seller and was given a pretty hostile response, and no-one contacted the seller for me.

But you didn't think to drop a mail to the forum moderators to ask them if there may be some way to help? No, you simply decided to turn up, have a go and decide that it was daft when it didn't go your way. Do you do this in your real life as well? You get to a members only club, try to blag your way in by asking *everyone* inside if they'll grab someome for you to chat to about something. Just 'cos it's the internet, don't think that basic rules and (dare I say it) manners and a bit of respect for the organisation, it's rules and it's members shoudn't apply.

For information, I didn't think I was "having a go" - tone is never conveyed on the internet, at that time it was not "having a go", nor is it now.

My point still stands - make it difficult for a potential buyer to contact a seller, the seller may lose a sale - the seller is punished more than they buyer who moves on.

As for the part about the members club - I think this is disingenuous.  It's not a members only club - its an internet forum with a "For Sale" section where non-members can come in and start to interact and ANYONE can join....I did not "blag my way in", nor did I ask everyone to grab someone to chat about something.  I asked members to ask another member to contact me regarding an item they had for sale.  If you didn't want me to talk, don't give me the ability.

[Blatman]

For information, I didn't think I was "having a go" - tone is never conveyed on the internet, at that time it was not "having a go", nor is it now.

My apologies, I didn't mean have a go as have fit of temper, I meant have a go at making contact by various means, then give up before you did the thing that (I think) most people would/should do, which is, speak to someone who can help by going to the contacts page and dashing off an email and asking for help. If you're in a shop and you can't find what you want, you ask the bloke behind the counter. Well, the blokes behind the counter here are all contactable via the contacts page.

My point still stands - make it difficult for a potential buyer to contact a seller, the seller may lose a sale - the seller is punished more than they buyer who moves on.

So 1 email to the moderators is harder than starting a thread, having folk jump all over you when you do, and you generally feeling like it may not be worth it? And of course club members recognise the issue and as has been said already, the WSCC is hardly the be all and end all if you want to sell something

My other point is that if we treated "the internet" as we did real life, the course of action to be taken would be obvious. You usually ask the bloke in charge...

As for the part about the members club - I think this is disingenuous.  It's not a members only club - its an internet forum with a "For Sale" section where non-members can come in and start to interact and ANYONE can join

It IS a members club, and was a memebrs club long before the internet was in wide use. It still is ostensibly a members club run by members for the benefit of other members, not the internet at large. Yes it is recognised that there are benefits to allowing a wider audience, but there must also be tangible benefits for memebrship, otherwise we're just another car forum. We are a car forum, but we have a focus and a method of operation. That said, if you look at the accounts (published every year) we don't *need* to chase membership. We're not short of money so there is no financial imperative that drives the membership rules. *Anything* a non member is able to access around here is a privilege, NOT a ight. If a non member doesn't like it... er... so what?

Harv, yes it's one issue but it seemed like the member concerned was being blamed, which I wanted to move away from.

However, it seems to have been viewed as an obvious flaw in the system that leaves the door open for the unscrupulous. Sadly there seems to be no easier way to mitigate the risk. If there was, I'm sure the webmaster would have implemented it. At the moment it is a case of all or nothing, but surely you can see the choice the moderators have to make, between protecting members by fixing an obvious, and now clearly public risk, or leaving everyone (members and non members alike) open to the risk of theft/fraud. I think they made the right choice. What if it was a non member that was defrauded by another non member, but using OUR system. The aggrieved non member could try to seek recompense through the courts by trying to blame the system used, seeing as the system is described as PRIVATE MESSAGE, a lawyer could argue that private also means properly controlled and secure. It'd be an expensive minefield.

I agree the PM's are useful. Of course they are, but currently the risk / benefit factor is tipped to the side of risk more than benefit right now, and the moderators have to answer to the members, not every 'net surfer who happens by. Hopefully that balance can be restored in the future.

[Guest]

Happy to agree that this was the only way to mitigate a repeat event , and understand the feeling by the club on this , i would guess that was it not a club forum there would be no need to mitigate as there would be no fear of issues from the outcome of such an event .

I wasn't trying to have a pop at the individual , however at the time the "look what i have got for such a stunning price lets see what we have actually got" rang alarm bells with me , maybe i am not the norm , but we all no how the old saying goes .

Sometimes you can't mitigate against all eventuallities ....

[Blatman]

Yep. if it looks too good to be true it probably is. But the naievity or otherwise of the users is not something we can influence.

The wider issue of fraudulent use of "our" systems is something that should be looked at to try to make it as safe as is reasonable given the circumstances.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Blatters - you 've only been back a week and look what you've fanned the flames to  

[blankczechbook]

a little while ago i did contact "web master " about this issue and despite threads about it from others i'd been the only one to actually approach and ask them directly.

A nice reply came back - basically the commitee had felt it necesary to change the pm rights of non-members.

As i am not a member i cannot influence their decision - nor demand an explanation into why they felt it necessary.

- but it was slightly strange that for the years before there hadn't been any problem.

i'd welcome a return to being able to pm members and perhaps a voluntary donation to the club for anything bought via the for sale section.

at this time it still isn't worth me joining just to use the pm function ( i am overseas BTW )

[stephenh]

Hi Czechbook, how do you know there wasn't a problem? If your not a member? I think the point Blatman makes is that there WAS a problem, unless I've completely missed the point.

Must admit I've missed most of this thread because I ran out of popcorn and "tinnies"    

[stephenh]

I meant to add that on a lot of other forums you cant even post if yuo're not a member, so I guess we're being quite generous to non-members.

[Blatman]

- but it was slightly strange that for the years before there hadn't been any problem.

Like any law or rule, action isn't taken until a problem is highlighted that exposes the flaws.

Take speeding. The M1 and lots, if not all roads around the country had no speed limits on them for decades. Then some muppet in a Cobra heads up the M1 at over 100mph plus and the government decide to introduce speed limits everywhere. The protest of "It's been like it for ages" is hardly a well thought out position for lodging an objection

i'd welcome a return to being able to pm members and perhaps a voluntary donation to the club for anything bought via the for sale section.

Would you elaborate on that?

[Blatman]

Blatters - you 've only been back a week and look what you've fanned the flames to  

[blankczechbook]

when a non member buys an item which might have been cheaper to a member then the non member donates the difference to the club funds/charity - if it was a bigger item then the amount would cover the membership fee and the club could gain a member and a glowing feeling inside.....

if you see what i mean

apologies for the lack of commas and full stops.

[Blatman]

I see what you mean, but the removal of PM'sm seems to be an attempt to prevent members falling victim to the unscrupulous use of our systems by non members seeking to take advantage. How does your suggestion enhance that scurity?

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

May be half the problem has arisen because of misunderstanding/lack of communication, (ironically). A simple announcement on a sticky at the time telling everyone of the change and the broad reason why may have helped. Managing Expectations and all that.