plawson63 Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 well i viewed in on thursday and it looked amazing,the guy had bentleys and range rovers in his garage,he modify them for a living! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 My point is, it is a quality product with quality backup. Webcon keep the software tinkering to their trained staff & outlets to give reproducible quality results. I am not suggesting Alpha is the last work in flexibility or that it is cheap, or it has all the features you want....BUT for a newbie who wants it to work, probably won't know how to tinker with it, let alone want to, it is probably a lot better quality than an averagely set up home built/mapped ECU which will be an up-hill struggle to get to grips with, and may well spoil a newbies enjoyment of a Wessy. This has little to do with maintaining a standard of service and if this was the case they would ensure that there were more R&R's that could map there systems. And why do you think that any of the other systems that I have mentioned would be any less easier to get up and running? do you have experiance of these sytems? I wouldent disagree that this sort of thing can be confusing for a newbie but after just little looking into it becomes fairly obvious of the benefits of the other systems over the Alpha unit, It is a shame that many new people to the Kit Car world end up purchasing a system such as this due to ignorance of the market and then soon afterwards discover the huge limatations of the Aplha ECU and relaise the benefits they could have had with another system which by comparison are just as easier inital set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVS Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 We will have to agree to dis-agree then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 I guess we will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen H Posted April 27, 2008 Share Posted April 27, 2008 well i viewed in on thursday and it looked amazing,the guy had bentleys and range rovers in his garage,he modify them for a living! 23k price will be about right for a kit of this standard ( I have built a Duratec Kit) - factory build would add around 3K to the costs for labour but home built cars 'CAN' be as good a quality as a factory one (sometimes better) 17k selling price - obviously cheaper than the build cost by some ££££'s and you could therefore call it a bargain / good value, if you have the money then why not go for it. Trouble I see is that not many cars go for 17k and ones as new as this if boughht at that price will still lose a higher % on devaluation. For instance if this car was 2-3 years old then it would probably fetch about 13K but the devalauation would be comparativly smaller after that. Alternatively, and as others have said, you could hold out / visit Stoneleigh and pick up something cheaper that won't de-value as much, there can be some very good cars for a lot cheaper but this will be for reasons like - a little older, cheaper spec, cheaper or smaller engine etc. There's only you who can decide if this one's for you - but it does sound a good car that is 6k cheaper than the build cost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plawson63 Posted April 27, 2008 Author Share Posted April 27, 2008 cheers glen,that helps alot,my view is that a drop of 2-3k over 2yrs isnt alot since most new standard cars drop alot more .For me its more about the insuarnce aswel since im under 25 and its very cheap compared to a fairly fast hot hatch.I dont need to use my car everyday because i have a van to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikpro Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I personally think it is a good buy if the standard of build is good. Nowt wrong with the Webcon ECU - how many production sports cars have easily mappable ECU's? Yes, some ECU's are easier to work with but there are RR's around that can do the mapping and one of the Best (Northampton Motorsport) can work with them. the Webcon kit has been specificaly designed for the Duratec so shouldn't be far off even though the exhaust system will be different. I would pick a Duratec over any like engine at the mo - you are getting a 2000 duratec for 1600 Zetec Money! yes, some other Westie's may be a better bargain but it still doesn't make this car a bad buy and I don't think you would loose much on it if you didn't like it in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 the Webcon kit has been specificaly designed for the Duratec so shouldn't be far off even though the exhaust system will be different. Which is partly the point James was making. If the exhaust is different, then the map loaded is going to be wrong at some point in the rev range and will need mapping. Also, the Weber Alpha kit was around long before Duratec engines so I don't think they were designed specifically for the Duratec As for how accurate the "standard" map is on a Westfield supplied product, ask the "Summer Madness" bulk buyers from a couple of years ago Unless you are buying a mass produced car from a major manufacturer, maps are usually not interchangable between cars so your unit could well need tweaking somewhere. It may not be engine threateningly bad, but why spend all that to have something that's not 100% correct? The point about the Weber Alpha not being adjustable is not because "we" tinker with our ECU's every day (indeed I haven't touched my DTA in over 7 years) but IF I have a problem, I can look at my maps, interrogate the ECU and read off errors and look at engine parameters to see if I have a problem, and adjust them or reload them from a back up if need be, for free... well, for the cost of a comms cable. If you can't do even that on an Alpha, then it may be a more costly choice in the long run I agree it's a quality product, but just because it's supplied from the manufacturer doesn't mean it's right for *your* specific application, it more likely means there is a deal in place that works for the manufacturer, not the customer There are too many variables with a hand built car and there are plenty of ECU's out there with the "standard" map (not only Westfields either...) that could be so much better with a little attention... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory's Dad Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Also, the Weber Alpha kit was around long before Duratec engines so I don't think they were designed specifically for the Duratec Whilst the kit may have been around for some time I guess the maps are all different. The manual for our 1600i is very engine specific. Rory's Dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 Which is a good thing. If Weber supply engine specific fitting instructions and fitting kits, more power to them. But even a well fitted ECU will alost certainly need some roller time to get it properly dialled in. And to show that I'm not a comlete Weber Alpha hater, I recently bought a Pinto trigger wheel fiting kit from them (2 actually) , and they are totaly brilliant. If you are fitting an ECU to a Pinto powered car and need a 36-1 trigger wheel, the Weber Alpha kit is highly reccommended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 The latest duratec engined cars from Westfield dont have the Webcon Alpha ecu and throttle bodies. Mine, built earlier this year, has the Dutch KMS units. The K stands for Kronenburg, not sure if that means I'm supposed to put lager in the fuel tank or drink lager! It seems quite happy on Shell optimax (or V-power) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 It seems quite happy on Shell optimax (or V-power) Does the engine have a knock sensor? If the answer to that question is "No" then unless it was specifically mapped using V-Max fuel (or any other high octane fuel) then it may actually be costing you a couple of HP. Plenty in the archives about high octane fuel and what they may or may not do for cars that either weren't mapped for high octane fuel or run without a knock sensor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 It seems quite happy on Shell optimax (or V-power) Does the engine have a knock sensor? If the answer to that question is "No" then unless it was specifically mapped using V-Max fuel (or any other high octane fuel) then it may actually be costing you a couple of HP. Plenty in the archives about high octane fuel and what they may or may not do for cars that either weren't mapped for high octane fuel or run without a knock sensor I don't know, but once the engine is well run in I plan to have the ecu mapped on a rolling road. Presumably that will then be ok, if it is mapped while running on high octane pump petrol? Now I'm going to search for knock sensor threads! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatman Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 If you map in on high octane fuel, that's all you should use from that point on. For safety, I'd map on ordinary U/L. It won't *cost* you any real power, but you have the ability to use SUL to give better knock protection when you hit the track. Plus, if you go abroad and can't identify for sure the SUL pump, you take yer chances. With a normal U/L, as long as you don't fill it with diesel, you can't lose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FW500 Posted April 28, 2008 Share Posted April 28, 2008 I've got around 16 maps for my engine. Combinations of Optimax, Std Unleaded, 109 Race Fuel and then with and without Nitrous. They're all totally irrelivant now as the inlet plenum has changed, turbo has changed, Throttle bodies and charge cooler have changed. As Blatman has said I'd hate not to be able to pull up the data log and see what my charge temps were over a session or check any other information let alone be able to load up one of my maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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