mallory aftermath

[steve_m]

Can I suggest you talk to the club officials before you discuss the incident - it's possible the club might like to manage this in a less public way which might also benefit Mark too.

[Blatman]

I was planning to go on the WSCC Cadwell Park track day in September, but will not do so if I think the standard of driving is as  chazpowerslide repoted on page 2 of the other thread on this topic. He didn't want to name names, but these drivers need to be banned from future events unless they can explain their driving. This really is not what I expect from a WSCC track day. What shocked me most reading about this was the lack of black flagging. I've been black flagged before for spinning when trying to avoid a cone in the middle of the track. Never even dreamt of trying to block other drivers on fast bends, or some of the other antics chazpowerslide mentioned. But if I did I would expect to be sent home. There's something seriously wrong here that WSCC needs to sort out. I wont be going on a WSCC track day till it is.

Nice knee jerk reaction, especially as we only have one side of the story as I have previously mentioned...

First off, I think we all need to calm down a bit and take a dispassionate look at what we are talking about.

1. There was one serious incident, for which we have but half the story. I'm not saying that the half we have is not correct, but we are venturing in to murky waters if the other chap takes exception to what has been written and decides to take action against anyone who he feels has commented unfairly about the incident and what may have caused it.

2. There are what, 2 or 3 other reports of questionable driving standards. I suspect that there are instances of that at *lots* of track days. I have no doubt that the drivers were briefed on what behaviour was expected. It appears some of them ignored the advice, and also forgot their manners. What happened to personal responsibility? Should we expect each car to go out with a marshal in the passenger seat, with a hand on the handbrake?

3. We don't know if any complaints were made to the organisers by attendees. If none were made, then all this is post event whinging by folk who don't have the balls to stand up and be counted on the day. If complaints were made, then that is something for the organisers to get in to when the debrief takes place. Until then, all we have is conjecture and speculation, which will get us nowhere. Plus, suppose someone connected with Mallory Park happens to read this. They may not want us back if, on top of a poor display of discipline at the event, some of our number are then seen to publicly criticise the marshals for failing to take action.

I submit that all this is doing is spoiling our reputation, and possibly alienating us from track day organisers who may decide they don't want us. I suggest we all take a breath and wait for some considered opinion when *all* the facts are in, rather than guessing, and making a bad situation worse.

[Nick M]

No matter how well or not, drivers behaved at this event, the risk still stands and the outcome is nobodys fault whatsoever

I cannot disagree with that enough !!

Rules should be clearly stated in the briefing and it's up to drivers to adhere to them and the organisers to enforce them.  THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED FROM IGNORING THOSE RULES.

If two cars come together there is a reason and it needs to be sorted out.  If there's a mechanical explanation then that's one thing, but if it's dangerous driving (it cannot be anything else IMO) then there clearly is someone at fault.

[Nick M]

Blatters,

I disagree with several of your comments.  The fact that there was an incident which was a result of two cars coming together is enough for serious questions to be asked.

But I shall refrain from making specific responses to your points.

Suffice to say my experience of commercial trackdays both in the UK and the US is such that, based on reports of events on Friday, I would not be attending a WSCC trackday.

[Phil. S]

Nice knee jerk reaction,

I was careful; to prefix what I said with the conditional "if I think the standard of driving is as  chazpowerslide repoted...". If things were as he reported then what I said is not a knee jerk reaction, but common sense. To say that "if things are a certain way, then we should.." is not to say that things were in that way, so is not to work with a one sided view.

[Blatman]

You last line is:

There's something seriously wrong here that WSCC needs to sort out. I wont be going on a WSCC track day till it is.

It's unequivocal, despite the caveats you make in the first line, and despite there being no official comments yet. I stand by my analysis until I'm proved wrong by an analysis of the event by impartial judges of fact.

[nlash]

No matter how well or not, drivers behaved at this event, the risk still stands and the outcome is nobodys fault whatsoever

I cannot disagree with that enough !!

Rules should be clearly stated in the briefing and it's up to drivers to adhere to them and the organisers to enforce them.  THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED FROM IGNORING THOSE RULES.

If two cars come together there is a reason and it needs to be sorted out.  If there's a mechanical explanation then that's one thing, but if it's dangerous driving (it cannot be anything else IMO) then there clearly is someone at fault.

OK. You have a strong point there

The rules mentioned in the briefing were as follows

1 Overtake on the left

2 The driver being overtaken is to signal his intention to pull to the right and allow the faster guy to pass, by either a wave or indication to the right or both

3 The faster driver should not make an attempt to pass until this signal is recognised

From what I picked up about the accident, Mark overtook the red car and was tagged by the red cars n/s front against his o/s rear which caused the loss of control to both cars.

Now I don't want to presume any rules were broken here but

a Did the driver of the red car indicate for Mark to pass?

b If he did then surely the driver of the red car knew of Marks presence and drove accordingly to allow him to pass

c If the driver of the red car was unaware of where Marks car was in relation to his car, then was a signal given prior to the overtaking manouvre?

d If consent was given for the passing, was the driver of the red car in control, i.e did something happen for the red car to move to the left and make contact which was out of his hands

You see where this is leading I hope, the rules where made clear that a signal is to be given by the slower driver for a quicker car to pass. If a pass is made without this signal then it is at the risk of the driver of the faster car.

This is why I think it is dangerous to assume fault with the driver of the red car

In general there were too many instances where there was overtaking particularly on the exit of Gerards without the slower driver knowing the position of the guy behind him, or even realising anyone is there at all. Who in their right mind then would move around the outside of a slower car on the exit of a fast bend and assume the slower driver has seen you. Thats just madness and probably explains why there were so many cars pushed onto the grass. When exiting Gerards at speed, all cars will tend to drift out to the exit kerb naturally anyway. I for one wouldn't dream of overtaking in that spot, or anywhere for that matter until I see clear indication from the slower driver that he has seen me and realises I want to get passed. I was passed in group B a number of times during the day by faster cars/drivers. EVERY time, I made a signal for the driver to make his move. If a car had made a move without a signal from me then thats taking some risk assuming I had seen it

[Chris Elworthy]

3. We don't know if any complaints were made to the organisers by attendees. If none were made, then all this is post event whinging by folk who don't have the balls to stand up and be counted on the day. If complaints were made, then that is something for the organisers to get in to when the debrief takes place. Until then, all we have is conjecture and speculation, which will get us nowhere. Plus, suppose someone connected with Mallory Park happens to read this. They may not want us back if, on top of a poor display of discipline at the event, some of our number are then seen to publicly criticise the marshals for failing to take action.

I submit that all this is doing is spoiling our reputation, and possibly alienating us from track day organisers who may decide they don't want us. I suggest we all take a breath and wait for some considered opinion when *all* the facts are in, rather than guessing, and making a bad situation worse.

I was not at this track day, and have only ever taken part in a few. I am (still) hoping to take part in 1 or 2 later this summer.

I fully respect the fact that this is an open forum, but I think we should read Blatman's point 3 very carefully and tame this thread for the general well-being of the club, the last thing we need is for track day or any other event organiser to have to think twice when entertaining WSCC.

I also feel that ( and I realise that ths is only my opinion):

1- How the issue is pursued is very much up to Mark, I am sure if he needs assistance in this or his rebuild he only has to ask and there will be willing hands.

2 - It is impossible to investigate this concern in public like this, we should now leave it the correct people to investigate (if a complaint or incident has even been registered) and they will publicise their finding is necessary.

This thread started with the "whip round" suggestion. If people feel compelled to do this they should be allowed to offer it in support of their colleague, and I am sure that this is the sentiment here, not trying to right a wrong.

[jeff oakley]

I have been to many track days and at every one there has been some sort of off which has lead to a damaged car both Westfield specific and genral trackdays, the last being at Coombe where a Golf rolled. With the best will in the world incidents will happen where ability is lacking, mechanical failure etc etc deals a bad hand for someone. I was not there and many who are commenting were not, the two drivers who know exactly what happened are not saying anything so we must assume they are pursuing this in a manner which satisfieys them and respect their privacy.

For people to say they will not attend a WSCC trackday is sad, it is a fundemental benefit of club membership and one which is of true value.

Now if it turned out that one driver was to blame 100% what do we do? Was it a simple mistake or a continous display of aggressive driving? Some times at track days people put themselves in the wrong group claiming expert status when they are beginners, so once on the track they become a danger with the closing speeds so differant. So do we as a club exclude someone who has made a mistake? Or do we learn and look at what has happened and see if there is a safer way for the members to enjoy these cars on track. I don't know but what is for sure if you were looking at this thread, and the others on here, would you think we were a well organised and run members club, or a bunch of hooligans?

I want people to think of us in the former so would encourage people to let the organisers and those who were directly involved discuss this and sort it out. Let us just be thankful everyone went home in one piece it could have been much much worse.

[Guest]

Right ,i notice a total lack of club comment on this or any other thread , that in itself is bad ,though i understand there is not a senior club official arround all the time .

Peoples comments about accidents happening on many trackdays i feel is actually inacurate , there are incidents yes , in over 10 years and many hundreds of track days i have never seen car to car contact EVER .

The organisers have a responsibility to police a day well , looking at the pictures i have seen and the comments i have read as well as specific accounts from drivers on the day it was a free for all in certain groups .

The idea of a fund to sort out damaged cars in my opinion is not a good one , this is not the first car written off on a trackday (and insurance is not that expensive if you insure a realistic sum )

I agree with Nick M that there is no way on earth i would attend a WSCC day until they run it properly and would not recommend them to anyone either.

WHO was running the day ? whats their experience with running comercial trackdays , have the club considered that events like this could jeperdise their MSA status ,i am sure there would be a few long faces if the Msa who have been having a hard look at trackdays for a while now decided thats the WSCC was not fit to run events , a harsh case but are the committee members aware of what could have happened has there been a serious injury or a fatality .

Sorry to raise such strong points but as far as the club is concerned they need to sort things before a serious incident does occur not after , this time regardless of blame nobody had a serious injury ,next time it might not be the case , police your days correctly and everybody will be happy but get your act together before people start throwing the trackdays are dangerous line and the government step in .

[Buzz Billsberry]

Jeeesus I've never heard such a load of complete b*****k put ya trumpets away and return to request in hand....at the end of the day one of the club members had a major accident and has lost his pride and joy at a club event and is no doubt feeling down,then all u lot want to do is have a go and get your hand bags out and some what missed the point, Jesus Christ..... If you don't want to help out with a donation then don't. It wasn't a demand with menice it was a fellow member wanting to help another member  out in some small way and you get this drivel

I hope you're ok Mark I have a new set of front wish bones u can have I'll have a look at other bits  etc . If u need any help striping down or rebuilding please let me know. I'll get a visa and come over the boarder to the effluent south for a few weekends if u like? Altho’ it will mean getting extremely drunk on the Saturday night.

I'll throw in £25. Excellent suggestion. Piston Broke

Buzz

[chazpowerslide]

Sorry Blatman, I don't think from what I have read/written that you even have one side of the story as you hav'nt spoken to Mark himself, you have second/third hand accounts.

I was very carefull not to go into specifics as has Mark and nobody as far as I can tell has appoerioned "blame" on the other driver on here or anywhere else.

There was car to car contact, the marks and dammage to both cars resulting from the initial contact speak for themselves.

Mark did talk to the other driver, what was said between them is up to Mark or the other chap to report or not as they see fit.

IMHO I think that how this event was run and controlled by the marshalls/officilas, and marks accident needs to be fully investigated by the club committe.

The club needs to understand where (if any) the failings were and put actions in place to prevent these issues from happening again, that is the way we maintain our reputation as one of the leading car clubs in the UK

As for upsetting organisers/venues that's a load of tosh IMO, the more we put pressure on them to attain and reach high standards of marshalling and organisation the better run and safer our track days will be.

If they can't reach the standards of marshalling and saftey we demand of them then for the saftey and well being of our members who attend we should go elsewhere.

Just for the record I did speak to one driver and more or less got told to stick it and I was told "dont bunch up so much" when I said to the guy on the paddock gate that there were slower cars not letting the faster ones through and it was causing issues.

I also resent the fact that you seem to imply that those that had issues did'nt have the balls to complain, It's a very contentious thing to do to go over to a fellow WSCC member and complain about their driving.

Besides, as an attendee I did not feel it was incumbent if me to do the job that I felt the officials/marshalls should have done.

Oh and as for post event "whinging" how the hell do you seek to move things on and prevent re-occouring issues if you don't air you views and have a good discussion afterwoods.

As you were not driving I don't think you are in a position to comment on what was going on on the track either.

There were more than one or two issues, Marks accident could have just as easily been very serious or even fatal, think what that would have done for the reputation of the club.

I'm pretty sure that if Mark had been seriously hurt or even killed there would be a full enquiry both legal and through the club, just because it was "only" his car that was written off does not mean to say the day should not be looked into.

I really care about this club, we as a group have a strong voice, we should be using our collective voices to ensure that our members get the best out of our suppliers from bulk buy cages to safer and expertly run track days.

Sorry to hijack the thread Mr PB.

Some of the comments raised my hackles a bit.

Chaz.

[Martin Keene]

Count me in...

£25 on standby.

I would also just like to say after I read PB's opening gambit, I was extremley proud to be part of a club that would do such a thing. Why did people have to go and p*** on a very  kind gesture?

[markcoopers]

Dear All,

Thank you so much for all your offers of generosity, it makes me proud to be a member of the WSCC.

To be honest I suggest you all keep your money, not that I don't need it or I'm too proud to accept it, but I'm not the first or last to loose a car. So i'll happily take a pint off you all when I see you at Harrogate kit car show or some other event.

For my part, I intend to keep this a private matter and will write to the committe. I would ask that we all respect this, but strongly urge anyone who was a witness to also write to the committee with what ever you saw to help them.

For the record, I will be attending other WSCC track days, and suggest to others that they are not put off by this very isolated event. Besides which I seam to remember a lot of smily faces and laughter in the paddock, so can't of been all that bad.

The club goes to great lengths to organise a whole range of events from shows to track days throughout the year, and needs your support in making them a success. What's the old addage, "you get out what you put in."  

[Guest]

Nice to see that chaz also understands the issues i was/am trying to raise , we should have never had these comments or incidents if things were run properly , If the committee want any input in how to do it right i am happy to help guide them , this does need addressing BEFORE something serious happens .

Trackdays for what its worth are about spirited driving in a safe and controled enviroment , that enviroment can only be controlled by the officials at the event , circuit staff will not usually interveen its not there job its the CLUBS job .

I think people exspect to much from the marshals , they are there for the event of an incident NOT policing the event .