CleaR Motorsport. A new beginning in Cheshire. Your chassis tunning specialist.

[Naranja_Al]

Thanks @Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO

[Andrzej]

On 04/03/2025 at 14:08, Maurici- CleaR Motorsport said:

To add onto the ARB controversy... 

There is no good reason to not be using the correct Antiroll bar. And I'll insist CORRECT, in the front.

Rear isn't quite that necessary till you push it to the limit.

But an ARB with the right stiffness range in the front is a TOOL to balance your car's behaviour.

Softened to the very limit will control the roll a little bit (not a bad thing) and be very very unobtrusive to the natural behaviour of the car, while allowing you to stiffen the front end roll progressively to play with the under/over steer transition of the car, and sharpening/quickening the weight transfer into the outer wheels.

 

Having said that, the wrong ARB, will completely ruin the front end of the car. 

 

@Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman @Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO

 

Hello Maurici!

 

I remember AdamR (and I suppouse with You togheter) was fabricating ARB for Lobster. Do You remember what material You used - tube ? solid bar ? what diameter and mostly- what type od steel ? I supouse it is steel the same as used in car springs, as it works with twisting as those, but maybe You know symbol ? Thanks!

 

 

 

[Maurici- CleaR Motorsport]

12 hours ago, Andrzej said:

 

Hello Maurici!

 

I remember AdamR (and I suppouse with You togheter) was fabricating ARB for Lobster. Do You remember what material You used - tube ? solid bar ? what diameter and mostly- what type od steel ? I supouse it is steel the same as used in car springs, as it works with twisting as those, but maybe You know symbol ? Thanks!

All the info is in the build tread...

 

 

 

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

I sent my rear shocks back to @DamperMan and he swiftly returned them with the spring perches replaced and copper slip on the threads. I also asked for slightly taller top hats and he obliged. Many thanks Tony.

 

The original strut top-

 

 

Now look like this-

 

 

I set the ride height roughly to where I though it needed to be and booked back in with @Maurici- CleaR Motorsport to finish of the corner weighting.

 

Sat 29th March 2025

 

I arrived on time a CleaR HQ and Maurici was ready and waiting. I was straight onto the scales and he started laughing! I was thinking "oh, no what's he found loose or broke"-

 

He took a pic and showed me this-

 

 

We were aiming for 50 here, so my 'rough guess' wasn't far off.

 

The rear springs were wound up by 7 turns each side to give this

 

 

On driving home, I noticed a mor regular crash/bang noise from both rear shocks on low speed bumps in the road (not potholes). I'd not noticed this on the way there and suspected the shocks were now at full extension with me in the car.

 

Once home I turned both shocks down to 1 out of 14 and I could reproduce the knocking by pulling the car up on the roll bar.

 

I've now wound both rear springs down by two full turns and increased the rear shocks to 9 (I'd got them set to 6 initially).

 

I'll see how this behaves on my next run out.

 

[Rednop1]

What sort of cost is a full suspension setting up ?

[harrypotter]

9 hours ago, Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO said:

I sent my rear shocks back to @DamperMan and he swiftly returned them with the spring perches replaced and copper slip on the threads. I also asked for slightly taller top hats and he obliged. Many thanks Tony.

 

The original strut top-

 

 

Now look like this-

 

 

I set the ride height roughly to where I though it needed to be and booked back in with @Maurici- CleaR Motorsport to finish of the corner weighting.

 

Sat 29th March 2025

 

I arrived on time a CleaR HQ and Maurici was ready and waiting. I was straight onto the scales and he started laughing! I was thinking "oh, no what's he found loose or broke"-

 

He took a pic and showed me this-

 

 

We were aiming for 50 here, so my 'rough guess' wasn't far off.

 

The rear springs were wound up by 7 turns each side to give this

 

 

On driving home, I noticed a mor regular crash/bang noise from both rear shocks on low speed bumps in the road (not potholes). I'd not noticed this on the way there and suspected the shocks were now at full extension with me in the car.

 

Once home I turned both shocks down to 1 out of 14 and I could reproduce the knocking by pulling the car up on the roll bar.

 

I've now wound both rear springs down by two full turns and increased the rear shocks to 9 (I'd got them set to 6 initially).

 

I'll see how this behaves on my next run out.

 

Interesting read.  

Did the taller top hats lengthen the overall length of the damper, or compress the spring more? (I've had issues with too much preload on my westy.)

Excuse my ignorance but what is the W fig related to and why is 50% desirable.

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

1 hour ago, harrypotter said:

Interesting read.  

Did the taller top hats lengthen the overall length of the damper, or compress the spring more? (I've had issues with too much preload on my westy.)

 

 

The type provided compress the spring more as we couldn't raise the ride height any further as there was no thread left on the driver's side shock.

 

 

1 hour ago, harrypotter said:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the W fig related to and why is 50% desirable.

I'll let @Maurici- CleaR Motorsport explain his magic, but I suspect it's getting the optimum weight balance on all 4 contact patches with me in the car.

[harrypotter]

2 hours ago, Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO said:

 

 

The type provided compress the spring more as we couldn't raise the ride height any further as there was no thread left on the driver's side shock.

 

 

I'll let @Maurici- CleaR Motorsport explain his magic, but I suspect it's getting the optimum weight balance on all 4 contact patches with me in the car.

Would a longer spring not have solved that problem?

I wonder if the raised ride height has now put the damper near to its fully open position and not left enough travel for it to work efficiently.

A longer damper might be a solution, with less preload required on the spring.

Too much preload can ultimately leave you with no suspension travel, or very little, such that it bangs fully open after you momentarily compress it on a bump or dip. I know because I've been there.

At the correct ride height, with the correctly rated spring, the damper should still have some travel available in droop.

All of the above is only my opinion and not necessarily fact.

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

 

Thanks Steven,

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

Would a longer spring not have solved that problem?

 

My rear springs are the progressive rear provided by Spax / @DamperMan as he's explained previously on here. This spring is an off the shelf item that seems to work for most of us and different lengths/rates aren't an option at the current price point.

 

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

I wonder if the raised ride height has now put the damper near to its fully open position and not left enough travel for it to work efficiently.

 

That's my understanding.

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

A longer damper might be a solution, with less preload required on the spring.

This is currently under consideration by changing the length of the eye at the top of the strut.

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

Too much preload can ultimately leave you with no suspension travel, or very little, such that it bangs fully open after you momentarily compress it on a bump or dip.

 

That's how I understand the noise is happening.

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

I know because I've been there.

 

How did you resolve it?

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

At the correct ride height, with the correctly rated spring, the damper should still have some travel available in droop.

 

That's were I want to get to. 

 

7 hours ago, harrypotter said:

All of the above is only my opinion and not necessarily fact.

 

It's all very welcome thanks!

[Maurici- CleaR Motorsport]

The car on its 4 wheels on the floor wasn't at full extension. So initially i didn't even expect that to happen... Shouldn't be a preload problem. But yes sounds like is hitting the top at overextension.

With the right rebound control, that should not happen either... And if it did at the end of its travel, shouldn't be as harsh as I heard in the videos Ian sent me once he got home... As it should be some sort of soft stop. 

We'll investigate further but the problem here seems to be the nature of the hardware, good or bad, isn't liking the current ride height.

Im surprised other people found themselves with this problem too, as I have never encountered that.  Maybe im too used to posher hardware.

 

After a bump a correctly valved  damper should control the body enough for preventing to go any higher than the resting position... At least with any sort of speed (by the end of its travel).

 

Lowering significantly the car is out of the picture as is a full road going car....

Stiffening it too much too, as is s fully road going car.

 

Some compromises may need to be made that Ill discuss with Ian on Thursday.

[Maurici- CleaR Motorsport]

14 hours ago, harrypotter said:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the W fig related to and why is 50% desirable.

In my scales is called wedge (w). And is basically the diagonal cross weight.

 

A correctly cross weighted car will have the same weight distribution in its diagonals, to allow the correct weight transfer when cornering and braking.

 

Think of it as a wonky 4 legged table.

 

 

[Maurici- CleaR Motorsport]

17 hours ago, Rednop1 said:

What sort of cost is a full suspension setting up ?

Send me a line Ash.

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

1 hour ago, Maurici- CleaR Motorsport said:

Think of it as a wonky 4 legged table.

 

Thanks for the lovely description of my pride and joy 😉 

[Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO]

1 hour ago, Maurici- CleaR Motorsport said:

The car on its 4 wheels on the floor wasn't at full extension. So initially i didn't even expect that to happen... Shouldn't be a preload problem. But yes sounds like is hitting the top at overextension.

With the right rebound control, that should not happen either... And if it did at the end of its travel, shouldn't be as harsh as I heard in the videos Ian sent me once he got home... As it should be some sort of soft stop. 

We'll investigate further but the problem here seems to be the nature of the hardware, good or bad, isn't liking the current ride height.

Im surprised other people found themselves with this problem too, as I have never encountered that.  Maybe im too used to posher hardware.

 

After a bump a correctly valved  damper should control the body enough for preventing to go any higher than the resting position... At least with any sort of speed (by the end of its travel).

 

Lowering significantly the car is out of the picture as is a full road going car....

Stiffening it too much too, as is s fully road going car.

 

Some compromises may need to be made that Ill discuss with Ian on Thursday.

Yep. I'm not blaming anyone on this and enjoy the engineering challenges of owning, driving and perfecting my toy.

 

For a little background here's what I order in Nov 2022-

 

 

My original (Westfield supplied) rear springs were 9" long and believed to be 195 lbs. I moved to the Spax progressive rear springs at the same time.

 

Here's a pic of my removed shocks at the time. As you'll see the spring platforms are roughly 1/2 way up the damper bodies on the front (black springs) and 2/3's up on the rear (white springs)

 

 

 

Here's my rear Spax before my visit to @Maurici- CleaR Motorsport 

 

 

 

Here's the PS on return home on Sat-

 

 

and the DS-

 

[CosKev]

Get some shock covers on them once you are happy👍

Give the threads above the spring seats a good squirt of ACF50 before putting the covers on🤓