Ukraine

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

These threads have been exceptionally well conducted on the whole. However racist and bigoted comments are not acceptable under any circumstances.

[stephenh]

They (the Ukrainians that is) say that in the south east, where Russian forces are progressing best and where they decided it would be a good idea to shell a nuclear power station, that the Russian soldiers have been instructed to confiscate the civilians' mobile 'phones. It seems that the Russians don't want them to be able to talk to their Russian relatives and friends. 

I wonder why??

[MR.C]

Bully's Know their limits, Putin could have ordered Ukraine to be

over run-in one day. He's treading carefully.

[Lyonspride]

5 hours ago, Steve (sdh2903) said:

 

 

So by your logic if all Russian people had access to the actual truth, not putin's truth they would all be 100% supportive of the 'special operation'?

 

 

No, that would never happen, he'd kill them all or throw them in prison. The Russian people will never speak out in large enough numbers to make any difference. You can see this in the recent media interviews of Russian people, it's very clear they will not speak out.

We're still thinking like westerners.


Now as for racism, well they're white and they're mostly Christian, although 70% of Russia is actually in Asia. The only thing that really separates us is location and political ideology.
My comments don't come from UK media outlets, they come from my experience and in talking to friends, family, work colleagues from Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia and other Eastern European countries. In fact one Polish colleague, about 4 years ago, had much harsher words for Russia and it's people than I would ever dare to repeat. I tend to believe there are good and bad everywhere, but this colleague he was not so "enlightened", he also commented that a certain other EE country was "just as bad".





Some pretty good, or at least interesting explanations of Ukraine/Russia "issues" from before the narrative changed.

https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-great-power-oil-gas-rivals-pipelines
 

[jeff oakley]

You do have to go back a long way to get to the nub of the issues here and the article in the Guardian is a decent one. The EU and the West wanted a number of ex Eastern Block countries to pull away from Russian influence and have done so by providing support to groups who opposed Russian influence. 

 

In 2013  President Yanukovych was democratically elected after re runs in an election that was seen as fair.

 

There was going to be a closer free trade agreement with the EU and freedom of movement prior to his re election which theyoung in particular wanted. In the end the president decided to not sign it and renewed ties with Russia.

 

This led to protests and eventually the government was overthrown in 2014, with the EU supportive of the change.

 

At that time there were three distinct Pro Russian areas, one being Crimea and that was where the Russian Black Sea Fleet was based. Denying them use of that would be ideal for NATO but unsurprisingly not Putin and Russia.

 

The response was inevitable and the West did nothing but tut tut as they wanted cheap oil etc.

 

So fast forward to now and there was renewed calls to join NATO and the EU, Putin acted.

 

I think he has underestimated the reaction this time and is now somewhat cornered hence his increasingly bizarre comments. Is he mad, no but he has no one to tell him he has lost the plot militarily as descent is a fatal mistake in his team. even now if he wins what will his prize be?

 

The media on both sides of a conflict is never truthful all the time, a few pictures of dead children is certain to whip up anger, rightly so, in Russia they have the same revulsion but they see dead Russian soldiers instead.

 

Now from my travels I have met many Russians and never met a blood thirsty one, but their history in WW2 is why they fear war and when they go to war they want to win. They lost 27 million lives in that conflict, by contrast the UK and US were less than 500,000 each and France 600000, China lost 20 million.

 

They are no more warmongers than we are in the general population I meet people from all over the world and stereotypical comments are usually from one source not from experience. Those I meet are wanting the same as us, a good safe life it is always the business men and politicians who want more and will risk war to get it.

 

I think this thread has been conducted well but it is the sign of a healthy democracy that opposing views can be made. Lets leave the name calling  

 

It is my opinion it is the Russian people who will help end this. Witness the brave protesters on the streets being carried away. As sanctions bite they will be the ones who make the most noise

[Glen_I]

25 minutes ago, jeff oakley said:

It is my opinion it is the Russian people who will help end this. Witness the brave protesters on the streets being carried away. As sanctions bite they will be the ones who make the most noise

This is what I'm hoping for but when will this happen??

 

I saw a interview today with a young lady who is Russian but lives and works in the Ukraine and she has been telling her parents who live in Russia about her home is underfire  and she cant escape and has showed them video images of the bombing/gunfire and they have practically dismissed everything she says, they are convinced its the Ukraines doing it to provoke the Russians into a war!!??

 

So so sad that even your own parents don't believe you.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60600487

[Blatman]

2 hours ago, Lyonspride said:

You can see this in the recent media interviews of Russian people, it's very clear they will not speak out.

 

Quote

The media is of course putting their own spin on all this, as they always do,

 

So which is it? Media spin or accurate reporting?

 

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, jeff oakley said:

They are no more warmongers than we are in the general population I meet people from all over the world and stereotypical comments are usually from one source not from experience.

 

Hear hear.

[corsechris]

Russia never really escaped from the brand of communism practiced before the USSR broke up. Just look where Putin and his ruling class came from, KGB to a man, and they’ve been working all this time to get back to the USSR as was.

 

I really can’t see how the decent Russian people there can ever hope to change anything either. The entire state mechanism there is complicit, and they know it. If Putin falls, there would be a very long list of names falling with him so it self-perpetuates. None of those people got where they are by accident - they wanted the job so that tells you all you need to know about them.

 

Speaking out against the regime gets you arrested double-quick. Pretty much the only thing a Russian with a conscience can do is leave the country.

 

I think I said before, I visited Russia a couple of times in the late ‘70s and the folk I met were generally just ordinary folk trying to get by…..but always with a slight nervous twitch and a glance over the shoulder to see who was watching. The regime was truly oppressive and all-pervading.

 

The UK have been feckless and greedy and were happy to fund an obviously corrupt regime because it was expedient and profitable, then we were more than happy to have the kleptocrats spend their money here in the hope we can make a few quid out of it, not to mention all the ‘golden visas’ and ‘contributions’. The rest of Europe hasn’t been any better either.

 

The world is just a cesspit of greed and corruption, and a not insignificant part of me thinks ‘**** it, call Putin’s bluff, how much worse than what we have now could it be’

[corsechris]

Mmm, “interesting”. FR24 shows the aircraft usually assigned the callsign ‘Airforce 2’ , a Boeing C32A, registration 98-0002, currently about to land in Moldova having recently left Poland.

[MR.C]

You sure it's not Jet 2.

[corsechris]

11 hours ago, MR.C said:

You sure it's not Jet 2.

Not unless they got new livery recently

 

 

[SootySport]

Sadly Russia Today has been taken off Freeview last week.

So next on Vlad's hitlist is Moldova, which will be a walkover compared to Ukraine.

Where next?

[corsechris]

Finland probably, then Sweden, then his entire western border is flanked by NATO…….which was his stated objection in the first place…..like we believe a word he says of course.

 

Suppose he could go south as an alternative. Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan. 

 

No clue at which point China might baulk and rein him in though. I can’t think they’d be happy with his ‘a world without Russia in it isn’t worth having’ doomsday proclamation though, and a nuclear confrontation would go global in seconds once it starts. 
 

Looking a lot like Elon Musk isn’t going to have time to make us multi-planetary after all…..

[jeff oakley]

From what is being reported from many sources is that they underestimated the degree of resistance in Ukraine.

 

Whatever the figure the advance has been slowed by losses of planes and of transport and again captured soldiers seem to be demoralised and confused as to why this is happening.

 

Does Putin have a plan past Ukraine? I am not so sure but looking at the performance of his troops do we think that NATO with the US firepower if they were dragged in would have any problem dealing with his normal weapons. When you see a huge convoy and think back to the Iraq war half a dozen A10 Warthogs would do massive damage there.

 

Lets hope it doesn't escalate even more and sad though it is for the Ukrainian people not getting the West involved further  is probably the best course at the moment