Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 9 hours ago, jeff oakley said: Without going a political we the consumers have made china the power it is. We have chased cheaper products from around the world and China with its massive population, land mass and resource were there waiting to take advantage. We ignored the fact they had human rights abuse, that they have form for invading areas, like Tibet, just so long as we get a cheaper product. We continue to ignore their buying up Africa and countries in he Caribbean with cheap loans etc. China is just as dangerous as Russia and it is only their economy success with the rest of the world that allows them to do what they do. That is true and I have been as guilty as any. Ten or twenty years ago I tried to avoid any PRC made products but principally because the quality was poor. Human rights were a consideration but a minor one only at that time. Meanwhile avoiding Chinese made products has become more and more difficult. A new toaster branded Bosch which landed on my mat has 'Made in China' on it. Currently, though, I have begun to actively avoid anything made in China if at all possible. A new mobile 'phone made in South Korea cost me more than a Chinese made one would have, and we have decided that we will either pay more for products made anywhere other than China, or simply go without. A small and ineffectual stand, but one which goes a small way to telling them to go to Hell. I have become as evangelistic about non-Chinese purchases as a vegan! I have got a 1970s Russian Zenith enlarger and I have stopped using it as a protest against Putin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff oakley Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 If this all ends without a wider conflict then it will be a wake up call to business and our leaders. We need to be energy self sufficient, allowing shale gas extraction, looking at using the coal reserves we have. Coal can be burnt cleanly now for example. Open up more North Sea and build Nuclear power ourselves. We then need to get the UK manufacturing again and like you we try to not buy from certain places but it is hard as companies have sold their souls to the far East. We were in the States a few years ago and I was speaking with a guy over there. He was bemoaning how the US could not do without China and India and how if there was a war they could not arm like they did in past conflicts by turning manufacturing to a war effort. If ordinary people can see this why can business and governments. We are being controlled by a few markets hence fuel is now climbing toward £2 per ltr and household energy bill doubled, well ours has with the next years fixed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 The way China invades a country is with money. They 'convince' a government to take massive loans for some huge project the country doesn't really need, use Chinese labour and industry to implement the project, then present the host nation with a huge bill that they can't afford. A recent and very dramatic demonstration of that technique is the Maldives. China persuaded the leaders to have a bridge built between the airport island and Male. Given that the vast majority of traffic to & from the airport is tourists, very few of whom go to Male itself, it's a bridge to nowhere. And we funded it all. Ironic that a communist nation has won at capitalism. The west is morally bankrupt and frankly, I'm glad I won't live all that much longer to see how it plays out. Kind of vindicates my decision many years ago not to have kids - if I had any, I couldn't look them in the eyes the way the world is now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen_I Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 30 minutes ago, corsechris said: Kind of vindicates my decision many years ago not to have kids - if I had any, I couldn't look them in the eyes the way the world is now. This is where I'm struggling with it all, I have 2 young daughters so my interest is firmly with what lays ahead for them which seems very selfish for what others are enduring as I type. If it wasn't for them (and yes I know others have children) I would be more on-board for hitting Putin hard with force which in turn would hopefully make China and other leaders just step back and think a little more? I always remember my Nan saying 'why would you want children in this world?' That comment will stay with me forever especially coming from a lady/generation who adored children! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 @Glen_I I’m with your Nan in this and have been since I was young. I’ve always said my decision was 50% selfish and 50% selfless. Selfish because I wouldn’t want the responsibility, and selfless because how could I condemn another person to the world as I saw it developing. I suspect I’m very much in a minority. Population growth would tend to support that idea. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen_I Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 2 hours ago, corsechris said: I suspect I’m very much in a minority. Population growth would tend to support that idea. Only because I, like so many others thought we would never see nothing like this again? Some people learn by the past and others.....clearly have a different agenda and morales. The question I would love to know and this will never be found out via the usual news channels but how many of Putins closest aides are 100% on board with his decisions? I have always seen that with a dictator type of person in charge there is normally another A******e ready to take charge if something happens however could this be different, personally I can't see him backing down now. We all know he controls his state media but I seem to have noticed a little less from his news channels? Is this an indication that things are not going to how he initially hoped or just shutting everyone out?? I'm no political/military expert so I'm really at a loss with it all as to how it will pan out? I did read earlier that the UK along with other countries have started sending troops and equipment in that direction but as I understand it its not to get directly involved but to 'bolster Nato support' for the existing countries nearby in case he wants to go further???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 Putin has gradually been reorganising the political system in Russia to make himself effectively a dictator. He converted the system to be ‘vertical’, with him at the top, and with the ability to appoint or dismiss all positions under him. He’s changed the rules about length of term allowed so he can carry on in charge. I doubt his minions have any influence on what’s happening even if they did disagree. One well placed bullet is all it needs. Doubt it’ll happen though, sadly. Again, the parallels with Hitler are there. Joseph de Maistre said that ‘every nation gets the government it deserves’. Perhaps it might be better to say every nation gets the leaders it is prepared to tolerate to get what they want. Time for some serious soul-searching on a global scale I think. What are we prepared to tolerate? Principles are expensive things when it comes down to it, who is prepared to pay the price for honesty and decency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen_I Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 1 minute ago, corsechris said: One well placed bullet is all it needs. These have been my thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim RS Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 He must be No.1 on the hit list parade, with Alexander Lukashenko and Sergei Viktor high on the list with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR.C Posted February 26, 2022 Author Share Posted February 26, 2022 They tried to assassinate Hitler, didn't work out to well for quite a few people including the odd General. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff oakley Posted February 26, 2022 Share Posted February 26, 2022 Again we in the West like rules. I have no doubt if the West wanted it to happen there are the means to do just that but we have a policy of not assassinating a head of state who we are not at war with. Putin falls into that category so it would need to be the Ukrainians themselves as they could justify this. You often find people will agree with their leader no matter how mad he is, look how many supported Corbyn and as soon as he went they were all distancing themselves. It would be exactly the same in Russia but would need Alexi Navaly the opposition leader who is currently under arrest under Putins orders, to be allowed to form a government for real change to happen. It is a sad state we are in but the way it is going Russian troops are paying quite a price for the grounds they win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IainCameron Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 https://acoup.blog/2022/02/25/miscellanea-understanding-the-war-in-ukraine/ I was going to write some stuff but this chap does it better, even if it's a 20-minute read. In my view, the best bet for Ukraine's long-term independence from Russia is for the west to fund and enable Ukrainian resistance, in parallel with taking sufficiently harsh economic sanctions so that Russia's economy falters and Putin can't afford the blood and treasure that would be required. If you consider the trouble that USA had in Afghanistan and Iraq, with billions of dollars and dozens of partners, which led to ultimate failure, there is no way that a cash-strapped Putin is going to win (long-term) in Ukraine, with virtually zero global support. Trouble is, it's going to be very messy in the short-term. Sponsor the Ukraine war effort here (yes, it's genuine and safe): https://armysos.com.ua/en/help-the-army 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen_I Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 Thanks @IainCameron I will have a proper read later when the kids are in bed but a quick look and it seems really well laid out with what I read briefly. This has really hit home with me and I can only presume its my age and the fact I have responsibilities like my children that I'm paying close attention to it all and 'trying' to understand it as best as I can, whilst there is two sides to every story I'm doing my best to pick away at the info given to us and also trying to look at the Ukraine and Russian news but I'm well aware the propaganda tool will be in full swing at this point. I read an article that seemed to make out China has backed away slightly from Putans actions? Is this an indication that what he thought were his allies have actually stepped back slightly and if this is the case then hopefully that's a good thing? I'm under no illusions he won't back down as that will be a sign of weakness but fingers crossed this will alienate more people who he thought were closer to him? Clearly though the Ukrainians are putting up more of a fight than he thought or is his army not as good as he thought?? But will this lead to the fact he will use much heavier force over the next few days?? I'm also hoping if the Ukrainians can hold them off for as long as possible then the sanctions will start impacting their economy, the rich and other key figures then something may happen internally??? As I said, I'm no expert in this subject and just sit at home trying to make sense of it all😔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted February 27, 2022 Share Posted February 27, 2022 People of Kiev will be running out of food soon 😡 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR.C Posted February 27, 2022 Author Share Posted February 27, 2022 Looking at Ukraine it looks poor, but under the soil its all gold. Who's taking all this money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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