corsechris Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, OldStager said: why not cars chris, for my reasons above... Just the basic practicalities and efficiencies. The Mirai for example is a big car but most of the volume is taken up with H2 storage so it’s a small car on the inside. 700BAR requires a pretty strong tank, with a short lifecycle, the whole electrcity-H2-electricity cycle is hideously inefficient, an HFC is a lifed item as well, so is far from a magic bullet. Just makes no sense for cars really. The main thing that makes them so attractive is the belief that one can retain the same type of range and refuelling time as an ICE. Just doesn’t stack up though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard (OldStager) Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 minute ago, corsechris said: Just the basic practicalities and efficiencies. The Mirai for example is a big car but most of the volume is taken up with H2 storage so it’s a small car on the inside. 700BAR requires a pretty strong tank, with a short lifecycle, the whole electrcity-H2-electricity cycle is hideously inefficient, an HFC is a lifed item as well, so is far from a magic bullet. Just makes no sense for cars really. The main thing that makes them so attractive is the belief that one can retain the same type of range and refuelling time as an ICE. Just doesn’t stack up though. ah ok thanks, i know some one off cars have been built and one some years ago was highlighted at le mans, but i am aware of what you mention, be good to see how this all pans out, if we all live long enough, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonWest - Chris Broster - Bristol & Bath AO Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 The other issue is throughput of EV versus Fossil. Fossil refuel = 5-15 minutes depending on size, toilet and food/drinks = 4~8 per hour EV = 30-90 minutes charge = 2 per hour (Generous) However, Fossil = fixed location pumps (traditional layout under canopy etc) and mix of fuel = reduction in capacity EV = Can be at any parking space so increase availability - one feed, many connectors Then when you consider the intermediate position of mixed 'refueling/charging' a happy medium can be achieved with pumps still delivering fossil fuel and EV distributed around the perimeter. For most Refuel Stations out of town this shouldn't be a problem but I can see City sites struggling to provide the EV as well as Fossil fuels. Finally, the death knell won't be cost of fuel or Electricity - rather footfall into the Shop. I have a neighbour who runs 2 x stations and his fuel only accounts for approx 5% of profit - all other is from shop - Fuel brings the customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 It’s already technically possible to charge a car as you drive down the road, answering all the issues around convenience and access, but it would be spectacularly expensive to implement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarbonWest - Chris Broster - Bristol & Bath AO Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 @corsechris Agree and they have developed induction loops for junctions and traffic lights so that EV can be charged when stationary - noting that they don't need to keep an engine running. Bus stops are being fitted with induction charging points too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSkyBrad Posted June 21, 2021 Author Share Posted June 21, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Mart Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 They may have jumped the gun with Electric - nowhere near as green as some make out, and what about all the potential lost jobs with stopped Engine production... Hydrogen will be the way forwards with a very green way of producing..... Mart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard (OldStager) Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Chris Broster - Bristol & Bath AO said: The other issue is throughput of EV versus Fossil. Fossil refuel = 5-15 minutes depending on size, toilet and food/drinks = 4~8 per hour EV = 30-90 minutes charge = 2 per hour (Generous) However, Fossil = fixed location pumps (traditional layout under canopy etc) and mix of fuel = reduction in capacity EV = Can be at any parking space so increase availability - one feed, many connectors Then when you consider the intermediate position of mixed 'refueling/charging' a happy medium can be achieved with pumps still delivering fossil fuel and EV distributed around the perimeter. For most Refuel Stations out of town this shouldn't be a problem but I can see City sites struggling to provide the EV as well as Fossil fuels. Finally, the death knell won't be cost of fuel or Electricity - rather footfall into the Shop. I have a neighbour who runs 2 x stations and his fuel only accounts for approx 5% of profit - all other is from shop - Fuel brings the customers. i wonder how long it will take for say a major supermarket chain to have bays for ev's, admittedly unless tech catches up , you are not going to get much of a charge - but it has to be one of the sensible ways of doing all this ev charge infrastructure to ease the burdon on householders and fuel stations that currently offer the service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard (OldStager) Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 9 minutes ago, Mighty Mart said: They may have jumped the gun with Electric - nowhere near as green as some make out, and what about all the potential lost jobs with stopped Engine production... Hydrogen will be the way forwards with a very green way of producing..... Mart. i think this will be in a similar vein to the old vhs versus betamax concept from the 80's, who eventually wins only time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 For a long time I dismissed the entire EV/BEV thing with the image in my head of an EV trailing a very long extension cord to a coal burning power station - not very green. Thing is, depending on where you are in the world, that ranges from true to absolutely not true. The other thing is, even if it was charged with 100% coal burning power stations...it's STILL better than burning petrol or diesel, and that includes the manufacture of the vehicles too, although there is a requirement to do a certain amount of miles for that equation to work. The cleaner your power, the fewer miles needed to start winning. Simply, we just can't carry on as we are. Trouble is, it's an emotive topic as it's often seen as taking away our freedoms. If one feels one is entirely free to do as one pleases with no regard to the consequences, then fair enough, be angry and dismissive about it, but I don't, and I accept that things will change and that it might not necessarily be for the better as far as my convenience and entertainment goes. Just my view. YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan France Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Good story in the Telegraph last week about Coal/Climate Change. The Climate is, and has, always changed. It’s also unbelievably complex. Are we really sure that by reducing one tiny part (C02) we can actually control temperature? Good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard (OldStager) Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 16 minutes ago, Alan France said: Good story in the Telegraph last week about Coal/Climate Change. The Climate is, and has, always changed. It’s also unbelievably complex. Are we really sure that by reducing one tiny part (C02) we can actually control temperature? Good luck with that. yes and no, yes in that it has always changed due to the inclination of the planet to the sun, this causes - admittedly over a long time period- ice ages followed by thawing also the butterfly effect is a real thing so a volcano in italy can affect a place on the opposite side of the world, and no because it has been proved many many times that since the industrial revolution co2 has been increasing decade on decade, the chaps that do ice core samples are mainly the ones that can show this data, which can be found online - i dont have any to hand- the thing we all know is that the atmosphere is a very delicate thing, and the only thing that protects us from wildly changing conditions and radiation from the sun by reflecting the dodgy uv back to space, any small changes have huge effects, the planet would do just fine if we carried on as we are, its been through far worse. the issue is the animals living on it including humans. its a hard balance to maintain, but we really do need to help ourselves help future generations to come. all my views of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pistonbroke Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 10 hours ago, OldStager said: i live near blackpool, we still have those... except we call them trams... Except Trams run on tracks , Trolley bus ran on roads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard (OldStager) Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 lol;, i will give you that one... was meant as a gag really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan France Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 14 hours ago, OldStager said: yes and no, yes in that it has always changed due to the inclination of the planet to the sun, this causes - admittedly over a long time period- ice ages followed by thawing also the butterfly effect is a real thing so a volcano in italy can affect a place on the opposite side of the world, and no because it has been proved many many times that since the industrial revolution co2 has been increasing decade on decade, the chaps that do ice core samples are mainly the ones that can show this data, which can be found online - i dont have any to hand- the thing we all know is that the atmosphere is a very delicate thing, and the only thing that protects us from wildly changing conditions and radiation from the sun by reflecting the dodgy uv back to space, any small changes have huge effects, the planet would do just fine if we carried on as we are, its been through far worse. the issue is the animals living on it including humans. its a hard balance to maintain, but we really do need to help ourselves help future generations to come. all my views of course. You could well be right. Good luck with that, and how well is it going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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