GaryD1971 Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 55 minutes ago, DamperMan said: 102 wheels and 142 calculated at the flywheel. That feels like a lot of losses, mine was similar also with type 9 and Sierra diff. I can’t help thinking we spend loads on BHP but waste it. If only we could reduce losses it more cheaply than create power. I put that loss down to the age of the gearbox and diff, plus, not knowing the history of both of the above, general wear. The engine is just the bog standard 1.8 with 115 bhp cams, throttle bodies and westfield exhaust. I was expecting to get around 130bhp at the flywheel with my mods so 142 is above my expectations. I think I may look to overhaul the type 9 at some point in the future, along with 2.0 cams and an Ecu upgrade, but that won't be for a year or two (rolling road sessions aren't cheap!) 😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryD1971 Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 I did have the issue that affected Corsechris (I think it was) that the lowdown throttle opening map isn't suited to bike throttle bodies on the Ecu that I'm running. The map position spacings aren't small enough to allow fine tuning as when the bike throttle bodies open just a very small amount, you still get a shed load of air sucked through. I would have liked to upgrade the Ecu before the RR session but funds wouldn't allow it. I'll just add it to the list of post IVA upgrades... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingster Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 53 minutes ago, GaryD1971 said: The map position spacings aren't small enough to allow fine tuning as when the bike throttle bodies open just a very small amount Yep. My mapper said the DTA ECU didn’t have the resolution he wanted to fine tune the lower end throttle response on the bike ITBs. MBE ecus have a much finer tuning capability. That said, he did a great job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamperMan Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Ian Kinder (Bagpuss) - Joint Peak District AO said: Also if you think that the losses are mainly heat, 30-40 BHP (22-29kW), it's an awful lot of heat to dissipate! I have thought that too! Yes the tyres get warm, the gearbox and diff but for my own measure we only use 2x 55kw gas heaters to heat a very large factory... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingster Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 2 hours ago, DamperMan said: That feels like a lot of losses, Yes mine was measured at around 29 - maybe the relatively new BGH box and Quaife ATB helped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TableLeg Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 hour ago, GaryD1971 said: I did have the issue that affected Corsechris (I think it was) that the lowdown throttle opening map isn't suited to bike throttle bodies on the Ecu that I'm running. The map position spacings aren't small enough to allow fine tuning as when the bike throttle bodies open just a very small amount, you still get a shed load of air sucked through. I would have liked to upgrade the Ecu before the RR session but funds wouldn't allow it. I'll just add it to the list of post IVA upgrades... You should be able to decrease the speed positions to as little as less than 100rpm between each injection map position. This can help with sensitive areas of a map. You right click on the '0' and select 'Speed positions' then you reduce the sensitive part of the map to give you better resolution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 @TableLeg Is that not another feature that only came with the later ECU? Confess I've never looked though. Gary & I both have the older M3DK, not the K3/K6. I'm not sure it would help in this situation though TBH - the problem is with the load sensing. Another method that could work would be blended setup with a MAP sensor. I ran that on the supercharged V6 I had, but it's not ideal with ITBs of course. I found a change of diff ratio made a huge improvement. It shifted the operating point enough to almost completely eliminate the problem. It was a bit serendipitous really as we only changed the diff to improve cruising (it's not a track car). We did try a newer ECU on the day ours was mapped - Karl quickly popped a K6 in and closed up the load sites at the bottom and it was an instant and complete fix. I should have just bought the new ECU at the time TBH. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TableLeg Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 minute ago, corsechris said: @TableLeg Is that not another feature that only came with the later ECU? Confess I've never looked though. Gary & I both have the older M3DK, not the K3/K6. I'm not sure it would help in this situation though TBH - the problem is with the load sensing. Another method that could work would be blended setup with a MAP sensor. I ran that on the supercharged V6 I had, but it's not ideal with ITBs of course. I found a change of diff ratio made a huge improvement. It shifted the operating point enough to almost completely eliminate the problem. It was a bit serendipitous really as we only changed the diff to improve cruising (it's not a track car). We did try a newer ECU on the day ours was mapped - Karl quickly popped a K6 in and closed up the load sites at the bottom and it was an instant and complete fix. I should have just bought the new ECU at the time TBH. I didn't realise you and Gary were on the M3DK so you may well be right. I seem to remember you can upgrade it to the K3 via Emerald for cheaper than a new one too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 16 minutes ago, TableLeg said: I didn't realise you and Gary were on the M3DK so you may well be right. I seem to remember you can upgrade it to the K3 via Emerald for cheaper than a new one too. They certainly used to offer a really generous upgrade path, probably still do. ISTR money was a bit tight when I took the Westy to them and couldn't really justify the extra cost of the upgrade, even though it was a good deal. Daft thing is, folk pay good money for crackle-maps these days - I've always seen it for what it is on ours, a defect ETA Just had a quick look and the Emerald site still mentions an M3DK to K3 upgrade...the link 404s but the online shop still lists it as an option at £180...which is a bargain. I'm tempted actually, but it is serial number limited so that'll need checking first. Upgrade only on serial numbers after 41272 IIRC ours was a very early one so maybe that's why I never upgraded it? Next time I knock the dead spiders off the car I'll check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TableLeg Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 https://www.emeraldm3d.com/engine-management-ecu-ems-conversion-kits/emerald-m3dk-to-k3-ecu-upgrade.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryD1971 Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 Dave did mention about upgrading mine while I was there yesterday. I was tempted, but I'm currently suffering from the same issue@corsechris had back then, not enough funds. As far as the diff ratio goes, I'm currently on a 3.54:1 according to my paperwork that came with the car. The tab on the diff is unreadable, so I have to assume the paperwork is correct. That seems to be about right for what I want. It's not on the current list of post IVA upgrades anyway... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted March 25, 2021 Share Posted March 25, 2021 1 hour ago, GaryD1971 said: Dave did mention about upgrading mine while I was there yesterday. I was tempted, but I'm currently suffering from the same issue@corsechris had back then, not enough funds. As far as the diff ratio goes, I'm currently on a 3.54:1 according to my paperwork that came with the car. The tab on the diff is unreadable, so I have to assume the paperwork is correct. That seems to be about right for what I want. It's not on the current list of post IVA upgrades anyway... Karl did tell me what was involved with the upgrade but it was a long time ago and I forget now! It’s excellent value at £180 though so I think if ours is compatible, I’ll probably do it. Haven’t treated the Westy to much love lately. 3.54 in ours too. It was ‘shorter’ at 3.89 but we prefer it with the 3.54. Anathema to the performance nuts, I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryD1971 Posted March 25, 2021 Author Share Posted March 25, 2021 I do agree that it is very good value, but I wonder if the map I've just had done would transfer over. If not, it's an expensive upgrade then! 😂 I wouldn't mind having mine upgraded if I could get away with just a tweak on the rollers instead of a full session. Would be worth doing then, but if I need another full RR set up it'll have to wait for a few years to get my moneys worth out of the current map! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corsechris Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 @GaryD1971 When Karl tried the new ECU on ours it took moments to put the map in, recalibrate the load sites then test it. I don’t recall if he used a map conversion tool or if it went straight in, but worst-case, you could just re-enter it manually. That said, I’d imagine transferring the map would be part of the service, but you could always ask the experts to confirm. ETA I can’t see why it would need any mapping after a swap, but again, ask the experts 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryD1971 Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Thanks @corsechris. I'd better get saving... 😁 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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