2.0 Zetec Upgrade Info

[MR.C]

No love not at all, just saying aeg's dyno sounds like

a true representation. To be fair I'd have expected nearer 195 if the

heads been done.

[aeg]

@MR.C remember I’m only on 270 cams! it would probably make 195 with 285 cams in , more if I put ARP bolts in so it could rev higher. But go and read the info on Newman cams website it makes you think !!!!! what do you really want ? And you can’t enjoy if it’s not usable .

[Kingster]

15 hours ago, MR.C said:

No love not at all, just saying aeg's dyno sounds like

a true representation. To be fair I'd have expected nearer 195 if the

heads been done.

Yes, but the opposite of words like “honest” and “true” are dishonest and false (or truth vs a lie)

 

I am not being dishonest and I am not lying. I just happen to have a result provided by a very reputable professional that shows a very substantial gain that is somewhat unexpected. It certainly surprised both the dyno operator and myself, but neither of us have reason to lie.
 

To my knowledge there is nobody else running my particular setup, with the cams dialed in and shimmed to exact same spec and then ran in hard & fast. It is certainly not the same as the more “normal” or popular route such as Jenvey/Omex with Piper/Kent/Newman cams. So who is to say it can’t achieve the results it has?
 

My view? I have been extremely lucky in selecting a mix of components that produced a very surprising result. Plus I ran the crate engine in properly in the first place.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

And that running in method, originally from the Sports Bike world I believe, while controversial to some, makes a helluva difference.

 

I’ve used it across numerous engine builds and big refreshes, (as in a hone plus new rings and bearings type refresh); and the resultant engines across three or four different mappers/dynos, including NMS, Ric Wood others with good names/reputations, have always made the top end or better power for their precise spec.

 

For some engines, that as stock, particularly those have somewhat restrictive intake systems, it’s amazing how much performance can be picked up with the combination of the sort of free flowing exhaust system, typical of Westfields, plus a good ITB system and inlet manifold, along with good mapping.

 

The Redtop XE was in this camp. Even though it was designed as a “sporty” engine with competition potential from the get go. The actual stock GM installation was restrictive.

 

And then you do have the opposite end of the spectrum, with the Honda F20C, from the S2000. Here the Westfield exhaust itself, actually reduces top end power somewhat, while an ITB conversion only brings quite a small overall power gain, as the stock engine is so well tuned to begin with.

[Paul Baker]

Well I had my day with Northampton Motorsport today. 

 

First of all I would say that I was really impressed with those guys, everyone (including the new Westfield team) speaks very highly of them and I can see why, very knowledgeable on Westfields. They were working on some great cars whilst I was there, I managed to park between a Delorian and a GT40 kit when I arrived!

 

So this is my car on the dyno, standard 2.0 blacktop Zetec, as supplied by Westfield with my full kit. Omex ECU with Omex throttle bodies and newly fitted Piper Cams -

 

 

And here is the result - 185 max bhp at the flywheel (ok, I'm rounding up from 184.3). I'd say that's probably what I was expecting. Talking to them about the spec of the engine, exhaust set up and ancillaries, I've got a few options for going up to 200ish but I'll need to rest the credit card for a while before thinking about that. 

 

[MR.C]

Which cams? I'm presuming 270's.

[darrenb_123]

On 06/06/2023 at 22:18, Paul Baker said:

Well I had my day with Northampton Motorsport today. 

 

First of all I would say that I was really impressed with those guys, everyone (including the new Westfield team) speaks very highly of them and I can see why, very knowledgeable on Westfields. They were working on some great cars whilst I was there, I managed to park between a Delorian and a GT40 kit when I arrived!

 

So this is my car on the dyno, standard 2.0 blacktop Zetec, as supplied by Westfield with my full kit. Omex ECU with Omex throttle bodies and newly fitted Piper Cams -

 

 

And here is the result - 185 max bhp at the flywheel (ok, I'm rounding up from 184.3). I'd say that's probably what I was expecting. Talking to them about the spec of the engine, exhaust set up and ancillaries, I've got a few options for going up to 200ish but I'll need to rest the credit card for a while before thinking about that. 

 

Hi Paul - I am thinking of having this done to my 2.0L blacktop, did they do it all while you waited and how much was it altogether? 

[Paul Baker]

Hi,

 

I’d say it’s definitely worth having a chat with them over the phone to talk through the options as there were a few other things I was considering. After a chat I settled on performance cams and a remap, of course the remap is needed anyway with new cams going in.

 

I paid £590 for the cams in advance, they ordered them in and that acted as the deposit. They said that the work ‘should be okay to be done in one day’ but only if there were no problems and if I got the car to them first thing. With that slight uncertainty I decided to take it up the day before, dropped it off mid morning and picked it up mid-afternoon the following day. 

 

In addition to the deposit I’d already paid, my other bill when I left was around £1k, which was based on the agreed works/fitting, plus the time spent on the dyno. I also chose to put in a brand new cambelt and one of the engine blanking plugs blew out whilst it was on the dyno so I needed a new plug and coolant. So without those I would suggest you could budget around £1500 all in.

 

Good luck if you decide to go for it, I certainly noticed the difference straight away in terms of power, as well as the engine sound.

 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

The dyno time tends to be the slightly more unpredictable bit; it can as Paul said generally be done in a (long) day, if all goes to plan. But that also tends to assume your map is reasonably decent before the cams went in. If the car has never been mapped before, (ie it's still on the factory map), it might be worth having a chant with them to see if having the car a bit longer would help, that way they can have  a decent look at things like the cold start mapping too.

 

...just a thought!

 

 

[Kingster]

9 hours ago, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman said:

having the car a bit longer would help, that way they can have  a decent look at things like the cold start mapping too.

Paid dividends with my time at Daytuner. Damien was extremely helpful in the way he explained (and tweaked) the ignition advance map for controlling cold starts on my ITBs without any std form of idle air control. 
 

Having a skilled and knowledgable dyno operator makes a huge difference. 

[darrenb_123]

On 19/08/2023 at 11:22, Paul Baker said:

Hi,

 

I’d say it’s definitely worth having a chat with them over the phone to talk through the options as there were a few other things I was considering. After a chat I settled on performance cams and a remap, of course the remap is needed anyway with new cams going in.

 

I paid £590 for the cams in advance, they ordered them in and that acted as the deposit. They said that the work ‘should be okay to be done in one day’ but only if there were no problems and if I got the car to them first thing. With that slight uncertainty I decided to take it up the day before, dropped it off mid morning and picked it up mid-afternoon the following day. 

 

In addition to the deposit I’d already paid, my other bill when I left was around £1k, which was based on the agreed works/fitting, plus the time spent on the dyno. I also chose to put in a brand new cambelt and one of the engine blanking plugs blew out whilst it was on the dyno so I needed a new plug and coolant. So without those I would suggest you could budget around £1500 all in.

 

Good luck if you decide to go for it, I certainly noticed the difference straight away in terms of power, as well as the engine sound.

 

Thanks Paul, I dropped them a line very helpful and said pretty much the same thing as you.

[Tomaky]

On 25/04/2023 at 13:14, Kingster said:

This is very interesting indeed.

 

Personally I am quite amazed that my engine (appears) to produce more power than it "should" - as was the dyno operator who was convinced the bike ITB's would prove to be a limiting factor.

 

As a matter of interest, I overlaid my graph to see what difference there was. Bear in mind, we are not talking apples vs apples though as the two plots are totally different.

 

So this is more a way to see that mine has a distinctly flatter torque curve and continues to make power  at higher revs because of this. Ignore the numbers, they are meaningless and this is in no way a direct comparison in that respect - I was more interested in the shape of the graph.

 

 

Completely missed this 🤦‍♂️ 

 

It was Dunnels opinion that mine should kept making more power higher in the rev range. I did push the tuner a little and it managed to keep making power until about 6300 that's still really 500rpm low to make peak power. I wasn't massively impressed with the fan setup they only had one relatively small fan. I do wonder that although my stock exhaust is gutted if its cat. Was I starting to hit the max potential of that exhaust hence why it didn't keep making power. 

[Tomaky]

On 24/04/2023 at 17:50, Tomaky said:

It looks like 190. It's making a shed ton of torque. I've not a final graph but I've a early one. Bit hard to read. The whp wht is bottom left. 

This was the final graph Al be it on a different scale. 

 

[Kingster]

Interesting how we both achieved very similar peak torque numbers, but your torque drops off after 5k while mine stayed high - which in turn allowed it to to keep making power as the revs went up. 
 

My car has gone now but the new owner did seem very happy with the way it pulled from 3000 right up to the 7200 soft cut.

[Tomaky]

it is abit weird, i cant say i notice it tho driving it. Ill see how carried away i get in the winter. It may get an exhaust and go to a different dyno ive found.