USA---Uncontrolled State Aggression.

[DonPeffers]

George Floyd's asphyxiation after 3 police officers knelt on him, including kneeling on his neck for 8 minutes, was truly shocking and marches in many countries show solidarity against such behaviour.

 

Then on Thursday two Buffalo cops shoved a peaceful 75 year old man to the ground where he lay unconscious and bleeding from a head wound, and from his ear, after falling backwards and cracking his head on the pavement. He is in a serious condition.

The article  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8394573/Two-Buffalo-cops-shoved-peace-activist-75-expected-CHARGED.html  shows photos and video of the truly shocking incident.

 

I hope the elderly gentleman can make a full recovery.

 

To protect and serve.......what the devil.

 

 

 

 

[dombanks]

The situation in America is astonishing. I’ve tried to hunt around the internet to get past any type bias media but I just seem to come back to the same conclusion that hugely underlying and unjustified racism playing out. Where it’s going to end is anyone’s guess. 
 

I watched/read a few reports today that were claiming the police or associated state ran law enforcement were being encouraged to remove name badges and any form of ID arguable so the officers couldn’t be identified. Which on one front is good for them or means they can’t be identified...

 

[corsechris]

I'd not be in law enforcement for all the tea Sri Lanka, they have to put up with the worst humanity has on offer. BUT, there has to be some way it can work better than it is now.

 

I'm quite sure they get the "I cannot breath/ I'm in pain" line from practically every person they restrain, but how on earth can they tell if it's genuine or not? They can't let a suspect go just because they are complaining. Conversely, there can be no sane justification for keeping a guy on the floor with a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, nor for pushing a 75 year old, clearly un-armed and non-aggressive man to the floor.

 

American law enforcement have to assume every person they contact will be armed and homicidal - that's going to take it's toll on how you behave. It's not an excuse, just an observation. I have no answers

[Blatman]

1 hour ago, corsechris said:

I'd not be in law enforcement for all the tea Sri Lanka, they have to put up with the worst humanity has on offer. BUT, there has to be some way it can work better than it is now.

 

I'm quite sure they get the "I cannot breath/ I'm in pain" line from practically every person they restrain, but how on earth can they tell if it's genuine or not? They can't let a suspect go just because they are complaining. Conversely, there can be no sane justification for keeping a guy on the floor with a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, nor for pushing a 75 year old, clearly un-armed and non-aggressive man to the floor.

 

American law enforcement have to assume every person they contact will be armed and homicidal - that's going to take it's toll on how you behave. It's not an excuse, just an observation. I have no answers

 

Again we agree on everything  

 

Mr Floyd's treatment was harsh, his death an unfortunate tragedy. As noted by my esteemed colleague the cops will hear "police brutality" shouted long and loud every time they make a strong take down and of course sometimes a strong take down is the only way, especially when it is very likely the suspect is armed and is MORE likely to use a weapon than not when confronted by law enforcement.

From what I have read, the initial autopsy carried out by (I assume) the state or county coroner found Mr Floyd expired from a heart attack. He was at the time of his detention, high on fentanyl and had meth-amphetamine in his system. He was a big guy, a known criminal who had just committed a suspected further offence. I'm betting he wasn't going to come quietly and given his physical size and criminality he was always going to be a handful if he chose to resist. As above, I am not trying to excuse his treatment at the hands of law enforcement but there must be some thought given to his chosen lifestyle and his likely behavior when told to stop by police. 

 

I was doing a bit more research on this (some of you will know I like to examine the legal side for a lot of this stuff...) and I came across this FBI analysis of homicides in the USA from 2017.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

Blacks killed by blacks - 2627.

Blacks killed by whites - 264.

Sadly the stats don't say how many of either statistic were by law enforcement though murder suggests that "legitimate shootings" would not make it into the stats whereas a cop unlawfully killing someone would, but I can't verify that at the moment.

I'm betting the number of black people killed by white law enforcement makes up a small number of an already small number.

Again, I am not trying to justify anything. I am looking at the facts and figures presented by a trusted source.

 

The index page from which the above sheet can be found is here and gives a lot more tables to look at:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/expanded-homicide

[jeff oakley]

I have friends who live in the States and he was a DEA agent before it became Homelands security. There are thousands of Black people who work in law enforcement over there and many whites as well as Latino and Asians. They are not racists and do their best to uphold law and order under very difficult circumstances.

What happen to George Floyd was not right, he died needlessly and once again people like Al Sharpton are quick to pour fuel on the fire, as he has done in the past. Yet with all his rhetoric he and many others have been silent about the deaths of several Black officers during the riots and looting which has followed. Nothing shows your solidarity with a cause like running away from a shop with a flat screen TV under your arm.

There is an underclass of poor in the States of all races but it is a land of opportunity for those who have a chance. Take Obama, Father a Kenyan who married a white woman in Hawaii who then got a scholarship to Harvard Law School. They split up and she remarried an Indonesian and went to live in Indonesia. They returned but by then his father could afford to send him to a good school and he followed his father into Law after going to Harvard. He was the first Black, or to be more accurate, mixed race US president. The American dream.

Many from the underclass drag themselves up and make a success others become the residents of trailer parks and areas of deprivation, just like over here, except we have a good system of support for those who want it, need it and are willing to take it. Things are far worse in the US.

As Blatman points out black on black killings are huge, much gang related which is ignored by many as are the reasons so many fall into crime as do young latinos asians, Latino's and whites.

As my friend said, when he came back and was taking off his two guns that he wore to work, life is cheap for many involved in drugs but rewards are huge, so you assume every suspect is armed or high on angel dust and is out to kill you.

I am like many I have no answers but when I see people joining in with what is the latest social media event, with little understanding of what bandwagon they are jumping on it is worrying. We need change but after they have put down their cardboard signs and moved on to the next one, remember the kidnapped girls in Africa,  about two weeks before the facebook pictures changed, it will still be the same unless all races change.

Nothing can justify the rioting and looting and no one can justify George Floyds death or support the officers involved.

As for the 75 year old, what we saw looked awful but I have not seen the full version, was he refusing to move when told to? If so how do police move him? Our police will push people but most will not fall and bash their heads. I also noted as soon as the man was down one officer was calling for medical assistance, hard to say on what I have seen and read.

Over here the video of a young black man sending a boris bike into a police horse which then bolts and the rider hits a traffic light before the horse then hits a woman protester injuring both again how is that helping ? Can anyone justify that?

We are in sad times.

[DonPeffers]

13 hours ago, Blatman said:

 

Mr Floyd's treatment was harsh, his death an unfortunate tragedy.

I find your comment beyond ridiculous. If you died of asphyxiation because someone knelt on your neck for 8 minutes would that be simply a tragedy? (The Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Monday ruled that George's Floyd's death was a homicide and that he died by asphyxiation ).

 

As for a riot cop in protective gear pushing over, onto a concrete pavement, a thin, senior citizen who offered no threat there had to be a better way to restrain and if necessary detain him.

 

What makes the senior citizen case even worse is the threat by 57 Buffalo officers to resign if the 2 offending cops were suspended.

IMO they should all be sacked and never work in law enforcement again.

 

Rules of Police engagement need to change and be enforceable.

 

Much is made of Trump in power during the Floyd murder but forget Eric Garner (I can't breathe) 2014 while Obama was President.

 

It seems little changes but is that sustainable?

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

2 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

It seems little changes

Sadly, I disagree. It shocks and horrifies me to say it, but I think, (globally), things have actually started slipping back and getting worse.

 

Im hoping it’s just more awareness and better publicity/less conspiracy of silence, because I was naive enough to never believe we’d go backwards.

[Blatman]

18 hours ago, jeff oakley said:

As Blatman points out black on black killings are huge,

 

Not me. The FBI...

[Blatman]

5 hours ago, DonPeffers said:

I find your comment beyond ridiculous.

 

Then you are mis-interpreting them. The tragedy is his family's, that he died needlessly. That's it.

[Barnsley John]

were was all the protests when lee rigby was slaughtered on our streets 

 

[jim_l]

That is an atrocious take on the situation Blatters, I have to disagree vehemently. “harsh, his death an unfortunate tragedy”, hardly describes the cold-blooded murder we saw.   

 

I noted the points you made subsequently “A strong takedown”, “he wasn't going to come quietly”, “A known criminal”, “Very likely the suspect is armed”, “high on fentanyl and had meth-amphetamine in his system” , “his chosen lifestyle “, “always going to be a handful “Mr Floyd expired from a heart attack” etc, 

 

These all APPEAR as attempts to do exactly what you say you are not doing, to “excuse his treatment at the hands of law enforcement”.  None of them have any relevance whatsoever anyway –there were FOUR of them, he was in handcuffs begging for his life, and we saw him killed by asphyxiation.

 

The discrimination black people face is well documented, right from the standard of pre-natal medical support, throughout their lives, their schooling is less well funded. They face discrimination in work, as candidates and employees.  Racial profiling and poor treatment is routine in their interaction with the police as youths. Consistent harsh treatment by the justice system; more likely to be convicted; longer sentences; statistically more likely to get the death sentence.   In prisons, they are discriminated against, and are statistically much more likely to die in custody.

 

You assume a life of crime is a ‘choice’ when so many struggle to escape poverty because of their skin colour?  You think a life of crime is a ‘choice’ when three offences of shoplifting can get you life without parole?  You think a life of crime is a ‘choice’ when so many unarmed suspects are killed by the police?  

 

Yes, minorities commit more crime, perhaps that is explained above, but the overrepresentation of blacks in the U.S. criminal justice system cannot be explained by differences in offending, people have tried.

 

More importantly, what is this is all about, not George Floyd, but the hundreds of George Floyds that went before him, and the future George Floyds, at the hands of police forces known for brutality across races, but known to discriminate against African Americans.

 

In 2015 one hundred and four unarmed black people were killed by police in the US, there were four convictions and only one was sentenced to more than four years.  One of them got ONE year, and was allowed to serve it on weekends.  Yes, the police kill unarmed white people too, it just happens to be many times more likely if your skin is black.

 

 A 2016 task force examining police behaviour in Chicago concluded that ‘they have no regard for the sanctity of life when it comes to people of color”

 

I could go on

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

[John Dolan - Wirral & North Wales AO]

It is just over 7 years since Lee Rigby was murdered, May 2013. Don't remember seeing much about that in the media recently. Who will remember George Floyd in 7 years? Irrespective of their backgrounds, colour, etc, neither man should have died in the way they did.

There are protests, there are marches, there are riots, will anything change?

[Blatman]

6 hours ago, jim_l said:

I noted the points you made subsequently “A strong takedown”, “he wasn't going to come quietly”, “A known criminal”, “Very likely the suspect is armed”, “high on fentanyl and had meth-amphetamine in his system” , “his chosen lifestyle “, “always going to be a handful “Mr Floyd expired from a heart attack” etc, 

 

 

I agree that his lifestyle may not have been a choice and that he could have been forced in to it through circumstance.

"Very likely the suspect is armed" and "strong takedown" was part of a general point about the difficulties faced by police and was not talking about Mr Floyd specifically but re-reading it I didn't make that abundantly clear.

My choice of phrase was an attempt at avoiding hyperbole.

The rest is trying to understand the facts of the situation and I think that is important. It was the County ME who said he died of a heart attack, not me. I was relaying the facts as published at the time.

 

 I am not in any way trying justify the murder of Mr Floyd.

 

His family have suffered a tragedy and I am as appalled as anyone by the circumstances.

[jim_l]

9 hours ago, Blatman said:

His family have suffered a tragedy and I am as appalled as anyone by the circumstances.

 

Thanks for explaining that, we agree, his death and the manner of his death were appalling. 

 

Cops in America are too often the victims as well, and in their training,  objective 1 is 'finish the shift' meaning shoot first and ask questions later, I do see the difficult context they work in.  Unfortunately the list of occasions they have blatantly overstepped the mark grows, just plain murder, followed by cover ups and a complete lack of accountability, so until now nothing changed.  

 

Interesting news this morning that Minneapolis council,  having decided that the city police department was "not reformable'  are going to dismantle it and start again.