2018 Regs and Explainations

[Marto303]

On 10/12/2017 at 13:42, Paul Morcom said:

 

The championship is run by volunteers and keeping things as simple as possible is the right thing to do.

Hi Paul

Your words above not mine, I’m simply giving my opinion. 

Dont get me wrong I think it’s great that we offer a class for all our mates ( no longer Westfield driving mates ) to come along and enjoy the day and have a great time. I also think the verity of cars in J adds to interest for drivers and spectators alike, it’s a good thing. With my interest in single seaters I may well end up there myself! 

Just seems odd to me that we can run a separate score system for J but don’t have time to do the same for the novices, make of that what you will, that’s my opinion. 

Martin 

[maurici]

This is taking a not very nice route of I "said you said" ping pong.

I assume you trhow the Draft here because you want feedback.

People  isn't goint to feedback the unchanged regs... is going to feedback the changes, and suggest stuff and changes.

Are this suggestions being considered? or the efforts are now taken to write massive justifications  about why competitors suggestions are wrong?

Is being considered to rule back anything?

From memory... some of the questions raised by myself or by others.

Can we stop using calculated times? Any chance to re-open the SS Award to all the competitors? Any chance to re-consider the novice TT to try to encourage them a bit more in the heat of the moment? If the answer on everything is No (what it seems for the answers defending the changes), no point to open a feedback thread.

On the other side, I would like to se ABSOLUTELY everybody competing, giving their feedback, and the vote should be mandatory. At the end, we are going to be dealing with this regulations whe whole year, and so far, just 4 or 5 of the current competitors have had a saying.

 

 

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

4 minutes ago, maurici said:

Can we stop using calculated times? Any chance to re-open the SS Award to all the competitors? Any chance to re-consider the novice TT to try to encourage them a bit more in the heat of the moment? If the answer on everything is No (what it seems for the answers defending the changes), no point to open a feedback thread.

 

 

The short answer is yes,

I have asked could this be done for 2018 but we might have run out of time; it is our preference to use "record times" where we can; but we have the issue that the tyre change rule 3 years back and low numbers have meant that Target Times are soft as with running a TT System it take a couple of years to stablise.

We are reviewing the data from AdamR, yourself and others over the 2% difference and so please bear with us.

 

cheers

 

Panda

 

 

[Onliest Smeg David]

Regs don't in themselves tempt newbies, but they should be defined to help entice and definitely keep them. Now The 2% TT A B rule doesn't work, and is a demotivater IMO - e.g. Sunny Dry Blyton my fastest on ZZR 1C tyres was 73.39secs scoring 93.93 points but 2 years driving experience later my 2017 Sunny Dry Blyton on R1R 1B tyres time was 73.94 scoring 94.1 points which is zero reward for a big improvement. This is further evidence to that of Adams and Maurici re A and B classes not within level field.

When I started there was many 'fully' roadgoing Westfields sprinting regularly and seeing this helped attract me into the sport, with which I am fully hooked despite the lack of competitiveness and it is mainly resources that have hindered further full seasons. 2017 there were only 'sprint orientated' roadgoing Westfields regularly competing. This is definitely something that puts newbies off (regs could help this). We all have some competative spirit so enter something with Naff all chance and no-one to compete with isn't attractive. Some of my favourite memories were competing against similar Westfields with no expectation of winning anything.  MSA rop puts off some. PPE a few, although cost for these does not have to be excessive in the grand scheme of things ( I borrowed for first 2 events). BIG offputter to anyone starting off with a bike engined  Westfield is that they have to have ROP/1C tyres/Hans to enter as modified roadgoing which is a big cost to try a sport out (regs could help this). Regs could also help with numbers in class by phasing out 1C tyres, which are unlikely to be around for ever anyway.

Going way back to my first point which is far more important in the grand scheme of things is attracting and keeping novices. There will always be a large drop off so without getting encouraging many more members to try out this great sport and potentially get hooked, I do worry for the long term future. The current support for Novice is a good reason our series is 'the Bestest' but we still need to look further forward. The stats I quoted in earlier post do look like there's potential for stagnation. Perhaps being radically different with Regs to increase Novice uptake would set an example which other clubs follow.

UNFORTUNATELY this discussion has now severely detracted from the intentions of the 1st post by John, so maybe it would be worth separating off into its own @John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

31 minutes ago, maurici said:

This is taking a not very nice route of I "said you said" ping pong.

I assume you trhow the Draft here because you want feedback.

People  isn't goint to feedback the unchanged regs... is going to feedback the changes, and suggest stuff and changes.

Are this suggestions being considered? or the efforts are now taken to write massive justifications  about why competitors suggestions are wrong?

Is being considered to rule back anything?

From memory... some of the questions raised by myself or by others.

Can we stop using calculated times? Any chance to re-open the SS Award to all the competitors? Any chance to re-consider the novice TT to try to encourage them a bit more in the heat of the moment? If the answer on everything is No (what it seems for the answers defending the changes), no point to open a feedback thread.

On the other side, I would like to se ABSOLUTELY everybody competing, giving their feedback, and the vote should be mandatory. At the end, we are going to be dealing with this regulations whe whole year, and so far, just 4 or 5 of the current competitors have had a saying.

 

 

Maurici, muy bien, amo tu "spanglish"  but seriously you make a very good point that I think only John can answer, but I'll try   

Are these Draft Regs for comments   No, sorry but I didn't think they were, they were for correcting minor errors, the Team has worked very hard to get to where they have.

It's not perfect, it doesn't suit everyone, not everyone likes it, etc etc.......... but at this moment in time no-one can think of a better system of scoring and believe me there have been hundreds if not thousands of hours put into trying to do this. The system we have with all it's "supposed" faults Actually is the one that works best for OUR championship in the view of OUR SSOT. Simple as that really.

[Marto303]

20 minutes ago, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

 

UNFORTUNATELY this discussion has now severely detracted from the intentions of the 1st post by John, so maybe it would be worth separating off into its own @John Williams - WSCC Competition Secretary

I don’t really think it has David. It seems to me that the novice competitors want one thing and the SSOT for some reason want another. 

I was simply trying to point out that in my opinion the argument for not giving novices softer TT’s put forward by the SSOT does not stand up as they are prepared to run a completely separate calculation for another class. 

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

As has already been pointed out by several people, the thing that encourages novices to have a go more than anything else is other members / competitors. If all novices are scored in the same way, what difference will it make as they will be scoring amongst themselves?

[maurici]

1 hour ago, Nick - Joint North East AO said:

Maurici, muy bien, amo tu "spanglish"  but seriously you make a very good point that I think only John can answer, but I'll try   

Are these Draft Regs for comments   No, sorry but I didn't think they were, they were for correcting minor errors, the Team has worked very hard to get to where they have.

It's not perfect, it doesn't suit everyone, not everyone likes it, etc etc.......... but at this moment in time no-one can think of a better system of scoring and believe me there have been hundreds if not thousands of hours put into trying to do this. The system we have with all it's "supposed" faults Actually is the one that works best for OUR championship in the view of OUR SSOT. Simple as that really.

I do my best efforts to write understandable ideas, even I know my engish is far from perfect... but isn't easy sometimes... sorry about that.

 If the rules aren't opent to discussion and we  do have the best of the best available, not valuable opinion can be given, so, forget everything I said as obviously was out of context.

 

I wonder how many people will you regulary see in classes A and B next season.

 

*EDIT*  (how many not novices will you see in A and B)... wich is even worst as you will have the least experienced people playing against the hardest target times of the whole series.

[Simon Waterfall Syman84]

55 minutes ago, John said:

As has already been pointed out by several people, the thing that encourages novices to have a go more than anything else is other members / competitors. If all novices are scored in the same way, what difference will it make as they will be scoring amongst themselves?

Good point @John if it wasn't for the other members/competitors I wouldn't of even tried sprinting.

Having read all the comments I'm of the opinion now that it doesn't really matter about a whole set of softer TT for novices. it will all balance itself out with real data.

 

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

9 minutes ago, maurici said:

I do my best efforts to write understandable ideas, even I know my engish is far from perfect... but isn't easy sometimes... sorry about that.

 If the rules aren't opent to discussion and we  do have the best of the best available, not valuable opinion can be given, so, forget everything I said as obviously was out of context.

 

I wonder how many people will you regulary see in classes A and B next season.

Maurici, I am not on SSOT, so I don't know if this is correct, like I say only John can answer    I just gave my opinion, I am only normal member just like you these days,   it's great. 

I do the job of Championship Coordinator but Don't set the rules only make sure they are applied correctly  

I like you English it is better than my Spanish, which is getting better, still leaning  

[Onliest Smeg David]

I've spent 2 years full Stoneleigh attendances in the outside marque promoting the speed series to members and potential members. 

The majority that expressed an interest asked about the types of Westfields that compete, how many are standard road cars, what the commitment was, what the costs were. Many, despite my 'Lardy One' being in front of them, still saw the pure sprint Westfields they may be up against as a detractor as they all see the 'beasts' depicted within Westfield World. 5/6 events for the Sprint Challenge is still a fairly big commitment, whilst doing 1 or 2 without a competition to aim for is'nt worth commitment (this isn't how I saw it when I started)

"if all are scored in the same way" between classes is one of the issues highlighted earlier.  TT's though will not be an influence on someone trying out their first sprint. TTs may influence keeping competitors involved.

As competitors we are all passionate. We are giving feedback/opinion here as 'hooked' competitors from our individual viewpoints, BUT what do the general membership/AOs etc feel as to what may attract or not, What can we do to increase uptake! Until then perhaps we can only pontificate through our blinkers  

[Onliest Smeg David]

1 hour ago, Marto303 said:

It seems to me that the novice competitors want one thing and the SSOT for some reason want another. 

 

20 minutes ago, Nick - Joint North East AO said:

Maurici, I am not on SSOT,

I was under misunderstanding you were both on SSOT - SO WHO are on the SSOT now with JohnW??

[John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO]

Just now, Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO said:

 

I was under misunderstanding you were both on SSOT - SO WHO are on the SSOT now with JohnW??

we are just shaping, so please bear with us again - there is a project going on regard this

[B.RAD]

@Dave (OnliestSmeg) - Manchester AO - the roadgoing debate is an interesting one - if we're not defining a road going Westfield by the fact it has tax, MOT and insurance, how are we defining it?  I think you run a risk of excluding more cars than you would be including if you started stipulating things like full screens, carpets etc. Would you only allow padded seats over lightweight GRP? Would you ban fuel tanks below a certain capacity? My personal opinion is that it's crazy to try and argue that one Westfield with tax, MOT and insurance is "less roadgoing" than another Westfield with tax, MOT and insurance. Don't forget we've already been there a long time ago and moved away from it to include more cars.  In spirit with a popular movie at this time of year, "let it go" 

Key for me is offering more taster opportunities for people to get the bug and then decide what level of investment to make. If people are worried about being competitive because of the cars they see in the magazine, they need to be assured that those are the top end of the sport and that every Westfield has a place and if driven well, can be very competitive, as you yourself have been.

I do agree with Martin and some of the other comments that having a separate Novice championship is a massive draw to the club, I've discussed this at different events with different competitors (lotus club members, mini club members and some FF members) and they're all blown away that we offered this and think it's a great way of getting people in. It certainly lured me in! I'd like to see that come back.

[Terry Everall]

I cant think of any other clubs that offers such a large number of awards and trophies for Novices. All the SSOT want there to be more drivers taking part in more events and for the club to continue to be the envy of others and the best crowd in the paddock.