Peter (Monty) Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 The chap wasn't happy with the suspension settings... https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/sport-250/first-drive Quote
Rory's Dad Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Two things: 1) I think Westfield's can be made to handle very well. 2) I think R888s a wrong unless you're on a track. 3) The car (yet again) is of suspect build quality. 4) He's wrong about the styling... and almost everything else too. Just my opinion of course! 1 Quote
Steve (sdh2903) Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Having driven the car now for a few months I can chirp in my 2 penneth. I agree with some of the suspension comments. They've built a car using the s2000 chassis and just chucked on the same dampers and springs from the s2000. The car is different to the s2000 so should have had the suspension developed to suit (all imo of course). It's taken a fair few tweaks and probably a spring change on the cards to get it to a point where I'm happy. Difference here to a caterham is they do the suspension development for you. Steering comment. Don't know if that demo car has a quick rack (It should as it looks as though they are heading for a track spec car). Mine has a quick rack and it's very very sharp and precise. The problem with the 250 in my eyes is your getting close to caterham money a 310 kit is similarly priced. And they do all the development for you. Me I enjoy the tinkering and getting the car just how I want it but people reading that review may be put off by it. I'm not saying Westfield are charging too much as I've done mine on the thrift and yes I've saved a few grand but sacrificed a few new parts for overhauled. So I don't think they could sell it for much less without losing money. Lastly why oh why do they give demo cars to the press that aren't 100% spot on? This isn't the first time is it? Surely giving the car a day of attention by one of the mechs before it goes out to check everything is tip top is a wise investment? Quote
Steve (sdh2903) Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 40 minutes ago, Rory's Dad said: Two things: 1) I think Westfield's can be made to handle very well. 2) I think R888s a wrong unless you're on a track. 3) The car (yet again) is of suspect build quality. 4) He's wrong about the styling... and almost everything else too. Just my opinion of course! That's 4 not 2! 1 Quote
Thrustyjust Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Bits fell off LOL................... I think they just sunk their own ship letting a car out like that. Remember the Plato review for the Sport Turbo. No lesson learnt again. As for suspension, I cant say I was 100 % happy with the cars standard factory set up. In a weird way, stiffer meant smoother, as I am now not fighting the car. I think Westfields seem more interested these days in electric cars than sportscars. Does anyone at the factory actually run demo mules to develop or just live on past settings ? News on build manuals ? Allegedly nothing has changed in the chassis from the earlier cars to the S2000 according to them, only the front is different. I have seen a later Zetec car and the tubing is like matchsticks compared to the S2000 and ST cars. So, there must be deflection differences , flexing and weight changes. We know the later cars are heavier, but they still use the same old springs. http://www.harper-adams.ac.uk/news/203040/selfdriving-cars-project-awarded-5-million-research-funding Quote
Deanspoors Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Westfield has dropped a ball here, how hard can it be to figure out a decent setup and implement it on new builds, or at least the test car. A review like that will hurt Westfield, from owning a Westfield and experiencing ownership I would buy another one tomorrow, but if I was new to the scene and I read that I would be put off slightly, sounds like there are some fundamental flaws in the company as a car builder still. Quote
Steve (sdh2903) Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Other than the kit car magazines the mainstream UK motoring journo's all seem to look down upon kit cars as a whole as a figure of fun. Thinking Clarkson with the hawk stratos, Plato in the sport turbo etc. Westfield must be aware of this? So you have to ask A. why do they give the car to them to review in the first place. Is any publicity good or bad worth it? B. Why would you not go the extra mile to give them a completely 100% top notch sorted car. 1 Quote
Kit Car Electronics Posted August 12, 2017 Posted August 12, 2017 Such a shame, some of the basics (that could easily be sorted) have been rubbish for over 20 years - that tunnel carpet, padded dash with random switch selection, lop-sided front indicators would even look bad on a 10K car. The factory cars should be the best, but often they are much worse than our amateur built ones Quote
DonPeffers Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 On 8/12/2017 at 16:50, sdh2903 said: Difference here to a caterham is they do the suspension development for you. Steering comment. Don't know if that demo car has a quick rack (It should as it looks as though they are heading for a track spec car). Mine has a quick rack and it's very very sharp and precise. I wonder if Ollie Marriage really knows his stuff regardless of how long he's been a motoring journo? He suggests Chapman sold the rights to the Seven to Caterham when according to interviews given by Caterham's (previous) owner Graham Nearn (now deceased) it was gifted (which seemed to be the reason the Caterham v Birkin lawsuit failed in South Africa). Also is he unaware that Westfield sell cars all over the world? Thinking about it most of the world has better road surfaces than the UK (getting political now) yet seems UK still has to pay for planned European road upgrades as part of the Brexit divorce bill-----Grrrrrr!!! The Caterham suspension is factory set (for road use) to be fairly softly sprung and heavily damped and with fast steering---used to be 2.1 rack but now I believe it's 1.93. Also the rack weighting remains the same throughout is length. It can be easy to over-correct a slide with such a quick rack but you get used to it. My westie has a 2.4 rack and occasionally I think I would like the 2.1 (previous kitcar had that)----that is until I try some slow manoeuvering. OOI what rack does sdh2903 have? Only a proper racer like Tiff Needell will appreciate what a kitcar offers it terms of performance, affordability, easy DIY etc. Moral of the story is don't let pretty boys, who spend hours exfoliating, test our cars. On 8/12/2017 at 18:29, Rory's Dad said: Ooops! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition (Monty Python reference) Quote
Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Speaking in general terms... Journalists, whatever the medium, will almost always have an agenda, sometimes it may not be conscious, but it's incredibly, incredibly rare not to be there. It's not necessarily a bad thing either. (For instance some of the safety related mind sets that you see). A dislike or disdain for kit cars is a common one among many motoring journos, and the cleverer of them know that certain things are easy to make fun of; "build quality" in certain situations often being one. Yet often you could apply the same test to any number of production cars with the same result. Especially when dealing with cars designed to be light weight, where lighter weight, even flimsy feeling materials may be used, where it doesn't matter structurally. But that doesn't mean that part isn't fit for its particular purpose! Manufacturer built cars is a little more of a tricky one. Once upon a time, certainly, press fleet cars in the auto industry were often rather naughty, to say the least. Sometimes subtlety (or not) tuned over the original model, sometimes taken from the production line and virtually stripped and rebuilt by hand to finesse the model as far as possible. All sorts of "tricks" went on. I wonder how much still does, to be honest. Should kit manufacturers do similar? Should press cars be assembled without the usual time/money constraints on the staff building them? Should they be a true reflection of what the customer gets, or should they be idealised and show what can be done with the parts supplied. Should they in fact be built like an enthusiast would build them? (Always makes me laugh when people looking to buy express a preference for a factory build car). Mind you, at the very least, they should be checked thoroughly over to make sure nothing is obviously amiss. The Sport a Turbo is an interesting case though; that can't be had as a kit, so factory build is the only option, it's not sold as a tripped out race car, it does have a host of extra parts all over it that effectively "productionise" it way more than a standard Westfield. (The sort of parts that we then end up developing for ours, in some cases). So there is a certain argument to say that the ST's build level should be to a different, higher standard than a regular car, by virtue of the different market it's aimed at. Quote
Thrustyjust Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 43 minutes ago, DonPeffers said: I wonder if Ollie Marriage really knows his stuff regardless of how long he's been a motoring journo. He suggests Chapman sold the rights to the Seven to Caterham when according to interviews given by Caterham's owner Graham Nearn (now deceased) it was gifted (which seemed to be the reason the Caterham v Birkin lawsuit failed in South Africa). Also is he unaware that Westfield sell cars all over the world? Thinking about it most of the world has better road surfaces than the UK (getting political now) yet seems UK still has to pay for planned European road upgrades as part of the Brexit divorce bill-----Grrrrrr!!! The Caterham suspension is factory set (for road use) to be fairly softly sprung and heavily damped and with fast steering---used to be 2.1 rack but now I believe it's 1.93. Also the rack weighting remains the same throughout is length. It can be easy to over-correct a slide with such a quick rack but you get used to it. My westie has a 2.4 rack and occasionally I think I would like the 2.1 (previous kitcar had that)----that is until I try some slow manoeuvering. OOI what rack does sdh2903 have? Only a proper racer like Tiff Needell will appreciate what a kitcar offers it terms of performance, affordability, easy DIY etc. Moral of the story is don't let pretty boys, who spend hours exfoliating, test our cars. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition (Monty Python reference) Being that Ollie lives about 3 miles from me and shares the same road surfaces as me and yes, I do hear him blat past my house in many different supercars, I wouldnt hesitate in saying he knows how a car should handle and work. Caterham, Westfield, Birkin, Maclaren etc . In my eyes and I am no professional racing driver, I felt the rear of the car was wrong on mine. Without graphs, or CAD work ( computer, not cardboard) . The factory offered to set my car up with the suspension they sold me , but if it was to the level the test car was, seemed I saved wasting my money. There is a basic principle for how a car should handle and mine didnt meet this. The ST250 car is a great bit of kit and in a way , I should have built this instead of the S2000. If you believe the UK has the worst roads, then try Belgium, apparently. My MD took his Volvo Amazon there and spent most of the time on ripple boards and collecting bits that never fell off while driving in the UK. In fact I dont care about the worlds other roads, I want my Westfield to drive on the roads round here , to be honest and that it didnt do as well as my previous cars. As for steering, thats always a personal choice. Whatever quick rack I had supplied meets my needs . Perhaps the Caterham has a quicker rack and it might be needed in the torque monster the ST car is, but suits my S2000 nicely without jolting on a bump. As a whole, Top Gear magazine doesnt have Westfield listed in the back anymore. They used to , but now its not there. That in my eyes was great. We as a small niche company had one up on all the other companies who build 'kit cars' , but now its gone . Journalism can sell cars , if it meets the liking of the journalist using the product, it can also detract sales from 'things being poorly made' , such as bits falling off. My hinge pins are loose, so I engineered them with a centre punch to lock them. I am sure I am not the first to have this. As for not giving 'pretty boys a chance to test our cars' I am not sure how you push a car out to a larger audience ? Just keep it in the cupboard so no one know it exists or maybe get a car set up right, go though it with a fine tooth comb to make sure is 100% and gain sales? Quote
Steve (sdh2903) Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Very well put posts Dave and Justin The sport 250s price point puts It to within spitting distance of mid range caterham. Atom. Elise. So like it or lump it, it's going to be compared as such. Regardless of the extra performance of the 250 (Which by all calculations is closer to the 420r at 40k). I'm with Justin and also the top gear journo on the rear suspension especially. Something ain't quite right. I've tried all sorts of tweaks and am now at the point where springs are needing changes. The guy does put into words some of the sensations I had been trying to describe but am not articulate enough to get across so suspect he does know what he's on about. I had asked the factory about any changes that could be made and was simply told "we've had good feedback from the road and the track" and that was it. So my feedback is obviously of no interest or value. The "journo" spec car is an interesting dilemma. But am pretty sure if I was Mr Westfield I would want Mr top gear to be driving a car with all bells and whistles and it to be perfect. Whether that be a true representation of the factory output or not. Mine is a 2.4 rack. Ideal for fast road usage IMO. Quote
Thrustyjust Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 Well, just back for a 90 mile blat with me and the latest wife. Was epic. A great birthday treat for me , for her to say lets go for a spin in the car. The car was utterly fantastic. We hit some really rubbish roads over the Chilterns towards and beyond Christmas Common, Watlington, Benson, Wallingford, Wantage and home. I was able to chuck the car into fast corners and it stayed tight. Didnt wallow, dump the back end into hollows on the road was totally composed. The front seems pretty tidy and never had an issue, but the rear squirmed previously and now shows none of those issues and gave me more and more confidence the more I drove it. Its a different car with just the rear spring change , which isnt a factory adjustment. The only real issue was that the wife complained that having her hair done yesterday ' was now considered a waste of time and money' 1 Quote
Terry Everall Posted August 13, 2017 Posted August 13, 2017 She should have delayed her hairdo ....simples! Quote
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