Sport 250 Review on Top Gear site

[Steve (sdh2903)]

1 hour ago, DonPeffers said:

With my saved £10k I can upgrade springs or whatever

That's the problem the sport 250 has though. The 10k gap doesn't exist.

A complete caterham 420 with s pack is around 31k the last time I looked. R pack instead ads another 1k. The sport 250 starting kit price is 26k. There are a few options that are pretty much mandatory. By the time you've finished adding these your up at near 30k or even over it if you get enthusiastic. So the price differential is minimal.

I'm not slagging the car or the factory here I'm just a little frustrated as the the potential for the car is huge yet little seems to be exploited by the factory. They seem to not realise that at a 30k price point people are expecting a much more polished product. Not having to deal with p*** poor fitting bodywork or "jig made" diff brackets that don't fit, or the lack of any relevant accurate build manuals or suspension that's not really been designed or developed for the package.

I think the sport 250 had the potential not to be the "clumsy caterham" but the more modern contemporary caterham alternative.

[Thrustyjust]

Thats the thing. With a bit of effort from the factory, the cars could be light years better. None of this shoddy fitting body, poor chassis parts, suspension re-developed and tweaked, proper f*****ng manuals,, steering lock alternative, non - leaking rads etc etc . But the vibrance and interest just isnt there any more. If 'we' had a proper involvement into this, we would focus on the downfalls, re-engineer, re-produce and move forward, rather than dwell on ' developed, dont need no more' attitude to this. If as an employee to my MD, I said , we ought to try this and that, he would listen. Some pay off some dont. but its a moving market and goal posts move . You have to move with them. 

I am not saying we can move ahead of the Caterham game, thats currently over the horizon, but they could make this so much more presentable and a better product. Shipping out to manufacture shows that QC is rubbish. It went down the victorian toilet pan in the gents at the factory. Costs maybe less and profit in the short term maybe better, but how about selling a brilliant car and more of them , rather than a good car and less ? 

You all know my thoughts and I am sure it probably has gained my haters here, but I love the car and that I built it. I didnt want a pre-drilled, pre-wired, just drop the engine in caterham. Thats not what our / my car was about. I want Westfield to suceed and have a rosy future for us and future builders. I love helping people build cars and talking to people about this. Just cant quite put my finger on this..........................

[DonPeffers]

Hi Steve, I have just checked the Caterham website and found http://uk.caterhamcars.com/sites/default/files/content/270-310-360-420_price_specification_v1.6.pdf  regarding Caterham 420 with Duratec naturally aspirated 2.0 engine, 210bhp, 560kg  0-60 3.8secs, top speed 136mph and 375bhp per metric tonne.   (NOTE SV wide model 585kg and 359bhp/tonne).

Pricing as follows:-   (NOTE items marked ^ are included in S pack) (items marked * are added separately).

Basic narrow S3 420 kit  £28,495*,    plus factory build £2.,500*,   (plus SV widebody £2,500*  if comparing to wide Westfield),   On the road package (tax IVA etc) £895*,   Standard paint (4 colours) £1250^,   heater £300^,   Quick release Momo steering wheel £300*,    black leather seats £495^,    carpeted interior £115^,   4 point harness £250*,    Windscreen, hood & side screens £1250^,    uprated brake master cylinder £175*,    £595* for 15 inch anthracite alloys with Avons  (or 14 inch alloy wheels & 185/60 tyres=standard no addn. charge)

gives a grand total of £39,120   (£38,525 with 14 inch alloys).

The price list above quotes £4.495 for R pack which includes fixed Momo wheel (normally £150), 4 pt.harnesses, uprated master cyl., LSD and paint,   BUT NO heater, windscreen/weather, carpet etc.

Slight saving by choosing the £3495 S pack^ includes  carpet^,  windscreen/weather^,  leather seats^,  heater^,  standard paint^ and fixed^ Momo wheel( priced £150^) then add on the * items above which gives an additional £7065. (the £7065 includes additional £150 to upgrade fixed Momo to Quick release).

So £28,495 kit + £3495 S pack^ + £7065 as per * items above = £39,055    (£38,460 with 14 inch alloys/185 tyres).

If you want LSD add £995 (Caterham) or £895 (Westfield).

I very much take your point about customers expectations of a £30k car and I dare say Caterham are trading on their name to justify a hefty premium (£39k car) for what is a fair weather toy and certainly my limit would be £20k. Also it's fair to say it's much harder to get very accurate fitting with GRP rather than the aluminium used elsewhere.

If I have made any errors quoting prices etc The Captain will keep me right----hoping he's on the mend now and no more ladders.

Edited September 13, 2017 by DonPeffers
addn re LSD price difference

[Steve (sdh2903)]

I was working on the premise of a basic  home built s3 420 with s pack. Looking circa 32-33k. I didn't include costs of IVA tax etc as neither do Westfield. The LSD isn't included as standard in the 250 kit either.

If you start hitting all the options as above granted it jumps up. But the same can be said for the options list on the Westfield. The nc500 edition of the sport 250 with options is up over 36k

Options aside. My point is the gap isn't as big as it once was.

[Stu Faulkner]

50 minutes ago, DonPeffers said:

I very much take your point about customers expectations of a £30k car and I dare say Caterham are trading on their name to justify a hefty premium (£39k car) for what is a fair weather toy and certainly my limit would be £20k. Also it's fair to say it's much harder to get very accurate fitting with GRP rather than the aluminium used elsewhere.

Thats the issue.

My take on it is that a Westfield isn't worth 30K and the 20K mark is more realistic.

IMHO of course.

But if you give a professional tester a 30K car he is going to expect a lot for his money.

[DonPeffers]

I think the NC500 has a premium because of the route and badge connotation and is more of a collector's item.

Problem is the S3 is not really directly comparable being very narrow (think wearing ballet shoes or similar to drive) and 11 ft long. I'm fairly skinny and the S3 was snug.

S3 420 kit £28,495 + S pack £3,495 = CORRECTION NOT £32,990 slip of the finger but is £31,990.

Westfield Sport 250 kit £25,999,    £732 Hood/screen etc,    Widetrack wishbones £225,    heater £275,     optional fit to chassis loom, brake & fuel pipes £263 = £27,494.

The difference then becomes REVISED TO £31,990 - £27,494 = £4,496.

This is for the narrow car (£2,500 saving over widebody) with 14 inch alloys and 185/60 tyres--otherwise cost to upgrade.

Not sure I would be happy with 185s on a 210bhp Caterham and if I went widebody (£2,500) and 15 inch wheels and wider tyres (£595) then the difference is REVISED to £7,591 by my reckoning.

The depreciation on Caterhams is said to be the best amongst kitcars so it's possible some of the extra spend could be recouped upon resale.

No easy answers were cars are concerned

 

[Thrustyjust]

17 minutes ago, Stuart Faulkner - Shows & Events Coordinator said:

Thats the issue.

My take on it is that a Westfield isn't worth 30K and the 20K mark is more realistic.

IMHO of course.

But if you give a professional tester a 30K car he is going to expect a lot for his money.

Thats the answer. Seeing Westfields for sale, regardless of limited editions , for over 35k is just coffee on the keyboard inducing pricing. For some naff tartan seats ? Really ? I didnt comment when I saw these , as the sandal wearers would burn me at the stake for criticising the prices again, like the prelit that never sold for 7 grand and was a shed. Its a kit car in a kit car market. 

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

I'm also interest at how the choice of Caterham to compare with was arrived at.

The Westfield, due to the origins of its engine has a slightly strange torque/horse power combination.

So while it's "30" ish bhp more than the 420, is a rather disingenuous comparison, at nearly double the torque of the Caterham.  (150 lbs ft compared to 270 lbs ft for the Westfield). The Westfield although down on bhp is actually around 50 lbs ft higher torque than the 620 R.

Equally, you could make the argument that as the Westfield has to have the Turbo and intercooling and associated plumbing factored into the engine cost, which the 420 S/R doesn't, but the 620 S/R does, all be it Supercharger rather than Turbocharger does, then really the Mega S2000 equates more closely to the 420 and the Sport 250 to the 620! Which starts somewhere around £50k!

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Yes but the Westfield is lardy. My car with grp seats. Msa bar and carbon bits was up over 650kgs (378 bhp per ton) from memory. The 420 is allegedly 560kg (so 384bhp per ton). So my rational being the 20% loss in weight evens up the 20% loss in power.

The 620 is in a different league in that respect at around 560 bhp per Ton.

Anyway we're splitting heirs I loved the westy and I wouldn't buy a caterham. The point is if Westfield are serious about competing in the big money car stakes then they need to up their game.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

In that case, a 620S is circa 610 kg!

The point I was getting at though is that with such prestige "halo" models as the Sport 250,  they're immediately hobbled to some extent by the cost of the power plant and its ancillary items. Start throwing in the extra  costs of the development, that I don't argue, is required and the cost of the car starts ending up in territory that's damned difficult for the factory to inhabit.

It's an interesting question, would the factory be better concentrating on a simpler model, or models; a more basic power train, BUT, honing and improving the whole of the car, both for a production point of view and a dynamics point of view, where such costs could be spread over a greater number of very similar, bar options, cars, sold at a lower price, or should they keep pressing on with premium models like the Sport 2000S, Mega S2000 and Sport 250.

My heart wants the latter, and accepts that ahem, user input is required in the development. But my head tends to suspect that they might be better if they could invest around a single chassis, single power train and single, bar optional wind screen and aeroscreen set ups etc, body style. With models only differentiated by the options list and perhaps, if possible, some engine tuning packages.

Concentrate the money you have on getting one basic body set, right, and to a decent quality, Concemtrate on getting one basic chassis right. Yes, produce a few different spring/damper/ARB packages for touring, fast road, track or whatever. But the point is you're not trying to use limited funds to hone everything from a base level Mazda car to a Sport 250.

once you've spent a few years getting your basic formula right again, then maybe consider diversifying... 

[Steve (sdh2903)]

Agree whole heartedly Dave. Get the basics right first.

As everyone probably knows I did the 250 on a budget using used parts. If I had used the new engine box and diff I would have been up around the figures the factory are quoting. So unless they are getting bulk discount I doubt they're making a whole lot of profit on the sport 250. The margins of profit have been squeezed again since the dollar rate fell as the engine and ecu packages are from the states. That's a nearly 20 percent increase since I started my build 14 months ago.

[DonPeffers]

On 9/9/2017 at 19:05, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

 620S is circa 610 kg!

Yes the road going 620S with windscreen/weather, heater etc is 610kg in narrow S3 build, but the wide SV model (3 inches longer and 4 inches wider) adds 25kg according to  Caterham so weight would be 635kg.

I went off the 620 when I saw Simon Cowell had bought one and was driving it in L.A.

ADDITIONAL---Widebody SV 620S at 635kg equates to 488bhp/tonne.

 

[DonPeffers]

18 hours ago, Thrustyjust said:

Seeing Westfields for sale, regardless of limited editions , for over 35k is just coffee on the keyboard inducing pricing. For some naff tartan seats ? Really ?  Its a kit car in a kit car market. 

I'm still cleaning the 'vom' off the keyboard from the £60k Caterham Signature gold plated range announcement.

Kitcars as collectors works of art? 

Something badly wrong with wealth distribution.

[Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Chairman]

9 minutes ago, DonPeffers said:

Simon Cowell had bought one and was driving it in L.A.

At least he didn't keep it long, so not to many embarrassing photos of him in it!

[DonPeffers]

Just now, Dave Eastwood (Gadgetman) - Club Secretary said:

At least he didn't keep it long, so not to many embarrassing photos of him in it!

I saw a photo of him returning from his first drive in it and he had a small blood mark on his forehead--not sure if he headbutted the steering wheel.