B.RAD Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 @graham frankland @stephenh Good posts, thanks for the reflection. I'm still unclear as to where the issues with lack of runs/poor organisation sits and your posts seem to contradict each other - Glutey says the MSA lay out the rules for the clubs to follow, so if more value/runs are to be had is it the MSA that need to change, or is it the way the organising club runs the day? I also think that "MSA-bashing" (a slightly dramatic term for an experience based opinion) is not what this is about, although potentially deserved, we're talking about the comparison of a provider who has stepped in to the world of sprinting and is very quickly doing it better against the 'traditional' events. As @stephenh says, we are not the only competitors and probably not the most popular to some of the organising clubs, so maybe it's time for us as a club to think differently about how we run our championship, and who we run it with? I've mentioned it before and I'm sure Javelin would be up for it, why don't we trial a partnership with Javelin for a season? Freer regs allowing all Westfield owners to participate would support the numbers for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phelpsa Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 I'm usually quite happy with 4 runs in a day, although an extra run often helps if it's a new track to me. I like a bit of time between runs as it all gets a bit frantic with the double drives otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phelpsa Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Do javelin allow double drives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Yes mate 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrie Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 4 hours ago, BCF said: .......I've mentioned it before and I'm sure Javelin would be up for it, why don't we trial a partnership with Javelin for a season? Freer regs allowing all Westfield owners to participate would support the numbers for sure. It can't do any harm, can it. I'm worried that MSA events usually allow for 600bhp single seaters so everything has to be up F1 standards, whereas a trackday with timing for road legal cars is a bit different. I'm sure there have been a few accidents on trackdays, but nothing fatal, that you have to live in fear of. The MSA may even like "downgrading" these event, as they have plenty of other things to worry about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Single seaters run at the Javelin events too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Williams (Panda) - Joint Manchester AO Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 5 hours ago, BCF said: I've mentioned it before and I'm sure Javelin would be up for it, why don't we trial a partnership with Javelin for a season? Freer regs allowing all Westfield owners to participate would support the numbers for sure. Without going to deep the Speed Series Organising Team talked extensively about the possibility at our November Meeting.... here is the 3 hour meeting summed We understood the draw of Javelin and its affects on the 2017 season and into the future. The MSA requires us to be exclusively affiliated, so legally we can't do both. Personally i want to get more value for money for entrants.... Hindsight is amazing... but I realise that Blyton last year could have been done better and really this is why @terry everall started this thread as we are starting to plan for 2018 and work out how we can change within the current framework; and also focus on the full picture including ALL options for the future. I also had the problem that my life insurance policy covers me for Motorsport and they have accepted MSA rules for the policy; i would have to check that i'm covered for another organiser, so i'm reluctant to do any non MSA events as my family is more important than a day on the track. I'm meeting the other comp secs in a fortnight and will be raising the concerns with them. If people want to have a chat i will be at stoneleigh. cheers John Panda Williams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Barney I am sorry I have not made myself clear: Each club writes it's competion regs (rules) and submits them to the MSA (as the UK motorsport official body) for approval. The MSA Blue Book provides the framework under which we compete! (We all have not liked some of the decisions they have made in the last couple of years) It is the clubs who decide how many runs qualify for their championships and as an invited club we are running essentially against those regulations (supplementary and final) for the non WSCC organised events in which we compete. Some clubs like Longton at Seven Sisters do an excellent job of getting in 6 or 7 timed runs per event under the MSA regs. Most of the club organisers are unpaid CLUB enthusiats unlike Javelin who are a paid profit making organisation (a commercial business). Yes they have brought a new dimension to sprinting which we the clubs need to take notice of and up our game! We are still the Westfield Sports Car Club which in part got you into sprinting and has got a lot more going for it as a club than Javelin currently provide. (IMHO) Of course we all have a choice in this world and if you like Javelin more than the SS them you are free to go with them but can I ask that you do not continue to promote a rival profit making organisation on the WSCC website until John and the rest of the club comp secs have had an oportunity to address the challenges they pose! Thanks Glutey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.RAD Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Cheers Glutey, all clear and good info. But no, I don't think it's reasonable for me to stop discussing the great experience I had at the Javelin Sprint event, that's a bit like asking someone not to talk about a Borough 19, LDMC, BARC event etc. If we only did the WSCC event, we'd only do one a year so that's not a fair request. As you say, they're all individual clubs who run sprint events and we all like them in our own ways. I love this club and the Blyton event is my absolute highlight of the year, don't bring this club into the debate as i most certainly didn't. It's great you're so passionate about our sport and I'm proud that someone with that mindset is on our organising committee, but that doesn't mean we should not have or voice our own opinion. Sprinting is awesome, I've only been doing it three years but I am hooked, but having experienced a different approach It's clear there's work to be done, whether it's within the organising clubs or the MSA. Again, not talking about WSCC here. I'm personally really reassured by John (pandas) post & trust you are working in our interest as members of this fabulous club. I've provided sufficient information on how the Javelin day went which i hope will give some cause for conversation to free up more time for runs, allowing us all to continue enjoying the sport without a continuation of the gradual decline seen over the last couple of years. Maybe have a go at one yourself and see what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted April 23, 2017 Share Posted April 23, 2017 Suffice to say that the SSOT discussed Javelin at length at our last meeting and actions were assigned. John (Panda) has agreed to discuss Javelin at the next Club Secs meeting in a couple of weeks time! We spent a great deal of time and effort during the winter promoting the SS (Mail Shots and Facebook) and here we are less than a month into the season potentially undermining those efforts in favour of Javelin! (Who are not a car club) Last year I thought about doing a Javelin Sprint and rang them about the Insurance arrangemnts for both spectators and competitors (as Nick had raised it previously) I did not receive a meaningful answer from the guy on the end of the telephone at Javelin so I did not go (Personal Choice)! If you have more info on this point please let me know directly via email or text! I have no problem about raising the competitive issues that Javelin pose but now let it lye until we get some feedback as it is going to take some time to make changes as I think all the clubs 2017 regs will now be approved. Also talk to John direct (as he suggests above) with any other background info you may have! Some clubs will survive with or without Javelin some unfortunately may not, it needs some careful handling! Glutety 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Maybe the timing systems are a complication too far and all that we really need is a total elapsed time. I have lost count of the number of delays because spit timing and speed traps have stopped working. Are Javelin events timed with such features? I also hear that scrutineering for Javelin events is less than satisfactory. I hear of some cars getting through with unfastened batteries, poor bodywork, oil leaks, loose lights, broken glass and seating / harnesses that wouldn't muster in MSA events. No first hand experience so would be keen to hear from others that have been Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR2Turbo Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 I understood that if you are an MSA member you are also in breach of their rules by attending a non msa timed event. Whether they would enforce something that might be considered anticompetitive is another matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR2Turbo Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 One thing I noticed at Prescott yesterday is that they did not stop for lunch. They have enough marshalls that they just rotated and kept going. First practice was 8:30 and event finished at 5:40 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham frankland Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 Thanks David and John more good input for Panda's meeting. How many timed runs did they get at Prescott yesterday plse? G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR2Turbo Posted April 24, 2017 Share Posted April 24, 2017 It was a BHC round so Saturday was two practice (and a couple of support rounds including bikes and B licence championship) and Sunday was one practice and two timed runs with the top 12 before lunch and last thing. It was a large field and seemed to run without too many delays. A good crowd in the sun too. What is also interesting is the apparent trend of a growth in basic road going, (clios, mx5 etc) decline in specialist production (Caterham, Westfield etc) but massive growth in small bike engine single seaters. Perhaps scope for WSCC to attract more to our J classes David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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