SpeedSeries event feedback

[XTR2Turbo]

21 hours ago, stephenh said:

I didn't think that way of course when I was competing, but I discovered this when I was talking to another competitor (not an SS one!) in the paddock at Curborough not very long after the event several years ago at Prescott when Longton (I think it was) managed to get in so many runs. I mentioned to my neighbour in the Curborough Paddock about how many runs we had at Prescott, and he said he thought it had been a shambles and that if people wanted to do so many runs they should do trackdays. He seemed to be quite serious about it, not joking. So I thought I would mention this. Not sure what it adds, just that there is this alternative view, and that maybe the SS should avoid clubs/events where this view seems to prevail, and stick to clubs and events where they share the same view as the SS, namely to get as many runs in in reasonable time as the day permits.

Stephen

I have spoken with competitors (including at Prescott last weekend) where value (to them) is measured in broader terms than the number of runs. 

Spectator atmosphere .. especially if partners attending.

Club house / catering

Camping facilities

Paddock layout

Commentary

Class structure / championship structure

History

Event guide

etc

It may be that this differentiates competitors that like the classic hills to the sprints but I think it is worth acknowledging.

[B.RAD]

Sounds good David, always a big turn out there which can't be helped. I personally won't be doing another NAT A event where you only do two runs on the Saturday, just didn't appeal to me with a couple of minutes worth of in car for a day standing around, but I understand much like Stephen said that that is the way of things if you run in those championships.

John, I'll try to answer your questions but @benedwards64 has more experience and may know more than me...

The timing at Blyton was not the same as we have previously used, so no 64ft time and no top speed, but it did include a split at the braking point into the wiggler so you could see a section time. They were equally as passionate about the penalties for anyone hitting the timing gear, with the added threat that if you did hit it, you'd be paying for it!

Scrutineering seemed to be the same in my experience, they checked the battery was secure and terminals covered, they checked the seat and steering were all secure and the belts were fixed and the buckles functioned correctly, they checked each wheel for bearing play (& subsequently asked Ben to tighten up one of his front wheel bearings due to excessive play), and they did the usual helmet check.  I'm sure there was more I didn't notice. Where it was maybe slightly different was that there were 4 guys working together, 3 checked over the car doing their specific jobs while the 4th did the paperwork. Made it very slick and fast.

 

[B.RAD]

1 hour ago, XTR2Turbo said:

Stephen

I have spoken with competitors (including at Prescott last weekend) where value (to them) is measured in broader terms than the number of runs. 

Spectator atmosphere .. especially if partners attending.

Club house / catering

Camping facilities

Paddock layout

Commentary

Class structure / championship structure

History

Event guide

etc

It may be that this differentiates competitors that like the classic hills to the sprints but I think it is worth acknowledging.

Really good point and insight David

[XTR2Turbo]

10 minutes ago, BCF said:

Sounds good David, always a big turn out there which can't be helped. I personally won't be doing another NAT A event where you only do two runs on the Saturday, just didn't appeal to me with a couple of minutes worth of in car for a day standing around, but I understand much like Stephen said that that is the way of things if you run in those championships.

I spectate quite a lot at Prescott and Shelsley and they mainly seem to run this format.  If competing I think I would personally prefer it to be two single day events but those that compete seem to like the more relaxed atmosphere and they will often also spectate between runs.

 

 

[benedwards64]

17 minutes ago, BCF said:

John, I'll try to answer your questions but @benedwards64 has more experience and may know more than me...

Happy to provide some more feedback re: Javelin based on my experience when I have some time (probably later today). I'm not affiliated with Javelin at all, but have competed with them for the last 2-3 years so can give a good run-down if it's of any interest. Obviously I haven't competed in any MSA events so won't be able to draw any comparisons

[mark.anson]

In my experience there has to be a balance, and again it depends how you define value for money.

I have competed for a long time and have been equally frustrated by the standard two practice and two times run scenario when the day itself is tediously slow for no apparent reason and in the eyes of the organising club seems to want to run the event for the benefit of the BSC. ( and I'm talking as a BSC entrant here).

I have had equally really satisfying events when there have only been the two P and two times runs just because of offs etc etc.

On the other hand I also do the Longton events who will always give as many runs as they can which is great but at the last three sisters event I did I gave up after the eighth run as it was just two much. You could see the same at the last Anglesey event when folk got fed up in the afternoon as tyres were going off.

Im my view it's just some of the organising clubs need to get on the same page as the rest of us and be seen to at least be trying to give as many runs as they can where possible.

I relation to Croft there is no excuse to be packing up at 3pm BUT I do recall a couple of years ago after the second runs, we were told there was no Third run so some folk packed thier car away only to be told last minute that a third run was available after all. Some folk ( eg me ) got a third run but clearly others cried foul because they didn't have time to get ready again. 

 

[Terry Everall]

I think that a minimum of 2 practice and 3 timed runs should be possible at all events subject, of course , to abnormal delays

[XTR2Turbo]

Out of interest why does it need to be two practice and 2 / 3 timed rather than 1 practice and 3/4 timed runs?

[stickymint]

I did Aintree on Saturday - a very well organised day.  125 competitors, between us they managed to get 784 cars over the start line, i.e. two practise and four timed runs.  The day seemed relaxed with a decent break for lunch and even with this number of runs I think we finish between 4 - 5pm.

Organisation is key, they had their own PA system and kept us advised as and when to go to the start area, once there they helped place us in the correct running order minimising any delays.  To me, if you want to see how you can run an event succesfully, then go to their next event.

[graham frankland]

I think the 2 practice runs are specified in the Blue Book (although I have not checked exactly where) but last year at Hethel we all had to sign a waiver for the organisers and MSA steward to agree to go with only one practice run so we could get 2 timed runs completed in the remaining time available before the curfew.

Glutey 

[maurici]

Just seen that...

I dont think msa is limiting te number of runs but some clubs and championships limits the number of runs that are going to be done as per regs in the championship.

Imho, as a driver, I want as much runs as posible, but I'm never dissapointed for having only 2 timed runs as I'm used to for the continental hillclimbs (fia regulated in real roads), that are limited of two timed runs and if more, are considered a double event.

 

Technically speaking... the spirit of hillclimb and sprinting, is try to go as fast as possible as early as possible...

For doing thousands of runs and practice... there is a thing called time attack... where you can do as much laps as possible for the time and you can practice as much as you want.

This does not mean that i don't like to spend as much time as possible on the track... (of course I like it) but I've grown with 2 timed runs and it does not looks silly for me given the nature of the competition.

[benedwards64]

21 hours ago, benedwards64 said:

Happy to provide some more feedback re: Javelin based on my experience when I have some time (probably later today). I'm not affiliated with Javelin at all, but have competed with them for the last 2-3 years so can give a good run-down if it's of any interest. Obviously I haven't competed in any MSA events so won't be able to draw any comparisons

Sorry, not had a chance to sit down until now! As Barny mentioned I’ve run in the Javelin series for the last three years so I’ll cover off a couple of queries I’ve seen raised in this thread.

Scrutineering: a fair number of competitors will often travel to tracks the evening before, and more often than not the Javelin team will be running a trackday or similar the preceding day. Once this is done they are usually happy to scrutineer any cars that are there from about 5.30pm. Scrutineering of the remaining cars takes place on Sunday morning first thing, and they typically have two teams of two (plus other helpers) looking over the cars, helmet, paperwork etc. The scrutineers are generally pretty detailed, I’ve been pulled up in the past for a loose wheelbearing and the odd fluid leak, but generally their focus is to make sure everything is attached to the car properly, no fluid is being dropped and there’s no fire risk from uncovered battery terminals etc. If a harness is out of date they don’t mind, if it’s frayed or damaged they do. I’ve seen people with faulty inertia-reel seatbelts refused a drive until a replacement is sorted. 

Running of the day: the Javelin team do a very efficient job of keeping everything moving. Scrutineering, sign on, noise testing and the morning chat are all over by 9am and it’s straight on track for two sighting laps (usually done in two groups). By this time the marshals are all out and the untimed practice run begins. Cars are called in class order (by sub-class if it’s a big class) with the tin-top classes (A, B and C) going in order, followed by F (Caterfields etc) and S (Single seaters, Radicals and the like). The lady in charge of the tannoy does an excellent job of queue management, calling the next class up in time so that there’s no gap between cars and no unnecessary queueing. F and S get a bit more warning as we usually take longer to tog up. Cars are released at roughly 30 second intervals, but they keep an eye on faster/slower cars to ensure no-one catches the car in front. Reruns are dealt with immediately (you literally get sent straight back into the queue when you come in) and break-downs involving a tow are usually dealt with in 2 minutes. Yellow flags are minimised if at all possible – if you spin out, where safe to do so, you must continue at race speed so as not to impede the car behind you. After all if they catch you, they get a re-run on warm tyres
Usually the sighting, practice and 2-3 timed runs are done by lunch, with the remaining 3-4 timed runs in the afternoon. There’s a 5-min turnaround to sort timing between runs. Generally you’re going for a run every 40 minutes or so. If the runs finish early (as at Blyton, where it rained and about a third of the field stopped running) they will open the track for as many fun (un-timed) runs as you can fit in. Think I did about half a dozen at Blyton to give me some wet practice…

Cost: this season it’s £139 for the ‘lesser’ tracks (Blyton, Woodbridge, Kendrew) and £159 for the ‘bigger’ tracks (Snet 300, Anglesey, Cadwell). 

Regs: all on the website. I won’t go into too much detail as I don’t know how stuff compares to the MSA regs. It’s operated under the IOPD and a licence is required for each driver (£15 a year or £5 a round).

Timing: historically it has just been total elapsed time, but they have new timing gear which will apparently give split timing, top speed etc. This is new so can’t really comment yet, they weren’t using all the functionality at Blyton. Stoppages due to timing issues are rare, if anything happens they let the 2-3 cars on track finish and reset before sending the next car out.

Single-make sprints: Javelin currently also run the Toyota Sprint Series and Mazda Sprint Series, both of which have far more class definition. I have no idea if they’d be available to run a dedicated WSCC event, but I’m sure they’d be open to the conversation. It may give the firmer class structure some people seem to favour?

I hope this is useful to some. As I said I’m not affiliated with Javelin in any way, nor have I taken part in an MSA sprint so I cannot draw any comparisons nor do I want to detract at all from all the hard work that goes into running club events. I’m happy to expand on my experience or answer any queries here or by PM if necessary.

Cheers  
 

[stephenh]

As an MSA affiliated/approved club, it would not be possible to run some of the Speed Series rounds at MSA authorised events, and some at Javelin managed events. 

How many events does Javelin organise, and at how many different venues? Depending on the answer, it might not be possible for the WSCC Speed Series to change to running at Javelin events.

[benedwards64]

8 - 7 remaining this year:

http://www.javelinsprintdays.co.uk/sprint/index.php?route=product/category&path=60

[B.RAD]

I don't think the idea would be to merge the two competitions Stephen, more run an intro/sideline comp with a company such as Javelin to allow people a foothold into the sport, with the WSCC competition as the pinnacle of the sport to aspire to.