John K Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 Wasn't synchromesh invented back in imperial black and white days to remove the need for that? For sure syncromesh does a great job of the actual engaging of the gears. What a few folk have alluded to is that a DDc gets rid of the shunt you can feel in the whole transmission when you apply the throttle after the downshift. Again you don't need to but it makes me feel good to do it. And I used to think I was being more mechanically sympathetic until an RCM engineer pointed out I was probably wearing the clutch out more than I was saving the gears. I solved that dilema by not talking to him anymore..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Marks - North Oxfordshire AO Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Hi, All, I found the standard pedal position on my Eleven to be absolutely mad in that the accelerator was so far behind the brake that heeling and toeing would be impossible. I use this technique almost all the time - even on my modern company car, as well as classic cars of varying vintages. I also found that the accelerator was so far forward that it made driving the car a strain. At a factory Open Day, I found that there was nothing unique about my car but knew I was never going to be able to live with it. I decided to make up spacer brackets to move the pedal pivot to be level with that of the adjacent brake pedal. One ply template, 2No 6mm aluminium side plates and 2 No blocks (one to locate on the original pedal pivot and the other on the foot-well floor) and an evening's work and all is now good. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhett Turner - Black Country AO Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I know it is something I need to learn, especially for track days, I found at Curborough that if it was damp and you changed down without matching revs the back wheels locked and if the car is not dead straight then you had a moment. Of course at Curborough it's not easy to always down shift in a dead straight line and rev matching without heel and toeing tends to mean a loss of momentum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenh Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I'm glad to see that Ayton did it the same way as I do!! Gary, I think the quite noticeable throttle blipping quite early in the corners was for the benefit of the Japanese. Remember Honda supplied the engine which powered his F1 car at that time, and he is driving a Honda in that (Japanese) film clip. And the Japanese more or less invented "drifting" as a distinct form of motor sport. So all he is doing is making the back end break away in a controlled fashion into and through the corner, before actually getting properly on the power out of the bends. All to please the sponsors and spectators, I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Marks - North Oxfordshire AO Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 As per my post above, here's some images of my solution to the standard random pedal arrangement! The pedal looks non-standard as my first attempt to sort it involved cranking the pedal and, whilst it put the pad in the right place, the action was bizarre and lifted the pedal pad as it rotated! I will get round to replacing it with a new one at some point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Man On The Clapham Omnibus Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Nice work! Keep the brakes well bled or the pedal will go too low when used 'in anger'. That's the saving grace on my Z3 - the pedal goes down far enough under hard braking to bring it level with the throttle pedal. Another Z3 et al problem is the God-awful fly-by-wire throttle action. Manoeuvreing is as imprecise as a learner because the engine doesn't respond as predictably as a 'proper' throttle should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkymart Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 This is a new one on me braking and accelerating at the same time? Is it something to do with weight transfer loading up the front wheels? Or is it a rear wheel drive thing as my westy is the first rear wheel drive car I've had Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted February 4, 2016 Author Share Posted February 4, 2016 This is a new one on me braking and accelerating at the same time? Is it something to do with weight transfer loading up the front wheels? Or is it a rear wheel drive thing as my westy is the first rear wheel drive car I've hadAll of the following is just out of my head. I've got no formal driving training. But I have an engineering and physics background, so I'm just trying to apply those to the real world.I reckon there are 3 things in play here... The Double De-clutch (or DDc) makes a down shift smother. Not so much by helping the actual gears sync up as moden syncromesh does all that, I think it spins all the other gearbox internals up to speed with the higher rpm from when you blip the throttle with the clutch engaged but no gear seoected. So you dont feel a jolt when you re-engage the clutch when you are in te lower gear. Its subtle but its there. If you just want to drop a few cogs to over take a DDc on its own is fine. But to DDc you need the throttle and the clutch peddles. Fine unless you are also needing to brake. So that is when you Heel and Toe. The theory goes, you are probably hard on the brakes for a corner, knowing you need a lower gear to bomb out the other side. And that is when you need three feet. And finally we come to your point about weight transfer... I would assume if you are hard on the anchors you are maxing out the grop fom the tyres. You dont want any jolts to upset the balance. So that is why removing the transmission shunt with a DDc just makes all smoother. Or you can just buy a flappy paddle DSG ☺ Sorry for the massive post, especially if it us all cobblers, just my view... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 This is a new one on me braking and accelerating at the same time? Some interesting stuff in this thread about that very thing: http://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic/105939-f1-data-schumacher-vs-barrichello/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkymart Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 John thanks for that and along with that article for Adam makes a lot of sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snappy Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 The blipping of the throttle in the turns maintains boost pressure on a high revving turbo engine thus the second he feeds power in on the exit the power is there! A manual form of anti lag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kit Car Electronics Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 If you drive a modern Ford (other manufacturers are available ) then you'll notice if you upshift slowly the revs deliberately 'hang' at the next synchronous speed for a second to help give a smoother shift by removing the flywheel disturbance. Auto-blipped downshifts are already available on Minis I believe, which would remove the need for heel and toe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin (Mr T) Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 If you drive a modern Ford (other manufacturers are available ) then you'll notice if you upshift slowly the revs deliberately 'hang' at the next synchronous speed for a second to help give a smoother shift by removing the flywheel disturbance. Auto-blipped downshifts are already available on Minis I believe, which would remove the need for heel and toe... Where's the fun in that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kit Car Electronics Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Agreed, modern cars have deliberately removed the need for skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 If you drive a modern Ford (other manufacturers are available ) then you'll notice if you upshift slowly the revs deliberately 'hang' at the next synchronous speed for a second to help give a smoother shift by removing the flywheel disturbance. Auto-blipped downshifts are already available on Minis I believe, which would remove the need for heel and toe... Tis the work of the devil, the DEVIL... Burn it, BURN IT....!!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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