Why 1C tyres should be categorised road legal by MSA

[graham frankland]

Hi Folks

 

It will be interesting to see the MSA response but I really do think need to use our energies to find an acceptable solution to work within the rules we have been presented rather than keep on fighting a lost cause!

 

I look at this from 2 points of view

[graham frankland]

My thoughts continued

 

1) What the laws say

2) What is fair and equitable for sprint and hill climb competitors

 

1) We have 2 sets of legislation to consider

     a) E Marking which means the tyre complies with what is embossed on the side wall ie Width, Profile, Wheel Size, Load Rating, Speed Rating and which government approved them 

 

2) Tyre Efficiency , Wet Grip and Noise Regulations

 

It is under this legislation that the MSA are saying that 1C tyres have been banned for use on the Public Highway and hence the reason they are not longer allowed in Road Going Competitions

 

They can still however be used for Competition Use!

 

I also understand that over time current F Efficiency rated tyres and others will be banned from use on the public highway

 

Over the years Road Going Sprint and Hill Climb Cars have been extensively uprated making the Class 1C tyre a very suitable fitment for our events! 

 

I for One would like to keep using List 1C tyres if at all possible but it cannot be in a Road Going Class on the day at our events!

 

Although I have no data to back up my opinion but I believe newer 1A & 1B tyres will become less and less suitable for uprated Sprint and Hill climb cars as they continue to have to comply with tyre Efficiency regulations!

 

This again in my opinion leads to 3 leading scenarios

              1) Less uprating of cars in Road Going Class Cars to allow the safe use of the newer 1A/1B tyres

              2) Keep the current uprating of Road Going Class Cars and progress to Slick Tyres only  OR

              3) Create classes that allow the current technical spec of Road Going Cars to continue but with the use of 1C tyres

 

This approach seems to preserve all current options in tact and if we continue to stimulate the demand for 1C tyres then I am sure the manufactures will still make them for as long as we want them! 

 

The alternative is to have in the medium term potentially only 2 types of tyres:

Highly Efficient 1A/1B for Public Highway use and Road Going classes and 

Slicks for everything else

 

Lets get behind a Long Live the 1C Tyre campaign and focus how on innovative ways of how we can use them for as long as we can see into the future.

 

It also keeps all our options open and leaves the decision on what to use down to each individual competitor   

 

I hope this helps and sorry I hit the wrong button earlier

 

BR

 

G

[XTR2Turbo]

 

2) Tyre Efficiency , Wet Grip and Noise Regulations

 

It is under this legislation that the MSA are saying that 1C tyres have been banned for use on the Public Highway and hence the reason they are not longer allowed in Road Going Competitions

 

To be precise it is the sale of them that falls under the legislation. MSA are saying because they can't be sold directly for road use (even though road legal if they are bought for a racing car and subsequently fitted to a road car) then they won't accept them in road going classes.

 

I agree with your other points.

 

What's to stop mod prod classification being split going forwards to emarked and non emarked tyres.  ie 1c or slicks?

[windy]

It is under this legislation that the MSA are saying that 1C tyres have been banned for use on the Public Highway and hence the reason they are not longer allowed in Road Going Competitions

 

They can still however be used for Competition Use!

Graham, The MSA cannot make that statement if they are emarked. There is no legislation that bans the use of an emarked tyre on the public road. It is their own rule and unfortunately something we are going to have to make a fuss about to get it changed.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

To be precise it is the sale of them that falls under the legislation. MSA are saying because they can't be sold directly for road use (even though road legal if they are bought for a racing car and subsequently fitted to a road car) then they won't accept them in road going classes.

 

I agree with your other points.

 

What's to stop mod prod classification being split going forwards to emarked and non emarked tyres.  ie 1c or slicks?

Nothing, if you want to use them that is the way to do it.

[graham frankland]

Hi Folks

As this debate continues it is becoming much clearing that to run in Road Going Classes on the day

The tyres need to be both

E Marked

(and Comply with the)

Tyre Efficiency & Labelling Legislation

For the non road going classes it is down to the individual club regs to define what can and can't be used

I think I have got it now and I hope this helps

BR

G

[Terry Everall]

I have had a long conversation with BMTR who do not see a demand for the Supersoft ZZR (A24) in 13"sizes due to the MSA ruling and them moving to list1C. For that reason they will not be ordering any new tyres.. I have emailed Nick who will be posting something with more detail 

[XTR2Turbo]

Terry that seems to be at odds with what Simon said a few posts earlier based on conversation with Avon.  Blimey it is a b*******s muddle.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Regardless of EU rulings, the MSA have it within their powers to create rules within their own organisation to suit  themselves and their customers i.e. - us! Their own rules are not governed by EU rulings although it seems that  they like to portray that they are. If they wanted to allow 1C tyres for road going specialist production categories they could easily do so. Its completely their decision....

[XTR2Turbo]

Of course the MSA could create rules at the margins and look for loopholes but why would the UKs motorsport body want to get into a position that is at odds with the thrust of EU legislators.

 

I am sure that is a good idea for the health of motorsport going forwards !!

 

I think we do need to try and see it from the MSA perspective, not just our own personal bias.

 

The argument was lost back in 2010

 

They have created 1C to allow the tyres to still be used and left it for the organising clubs to decide if they want to allow a class that uses them or not.

 

If enough clubs create classes that make it attractive to use 1C and not slicks then not that much changes.  If they don't then you choose what class you want to be competitive in - whether 1b or slicks.

 

My personal view is that the best outcome is in effect a tightening of what is road going and a sub classification based on tyres / road legality within mod prod and specialist mod prod on the day. In effect our own distinction between what is road going and road legal.

 

There are plenty of arguments that could be made (e.g. by the caterham boys) that many of our cars are already mod specialist prod in the spirit of the rules even if not the letter of the blue book. ...  engines never fitted by the factory, non standard outline, small headlights, carbon body parts, catalysts, passenger seat,  non road legal steering columns, sprint fuel tanks, brake balance adjustment   etc etc   Isn't that why today many of the clubs don't let us enter some of the road going classes on the day but lump us in a Westfield class ?

[graham frankland]

Terry

It would be interesting to know upon what information BMTR used to come up with this "dramatic" decision

Also do Avon agree with the BMTR position?

How quickly will they be able to get them if the demand is forthcoming after all?

If BMTR don't want to sell them perhaps Avon will appoint another outlet for them if it does turn out that there is a demand1

Perhaps you should obtain a formal written statement from BMTR on this matter before allowing such sensitive information to be posted to the SS community without the appropriate formal confirmation from BMTR and Avon?

Thanks

Graham

[mark.anson]

If BMTR don't want to sell them perhaps Avon will appoint another outlet for them if it does turn out that there is a demand1

 

 

More chance of nailing a jelly to the ceiling than that happening Graham.

If there IS a demand BMTR will be all over them like a bad suit. !

 

 

SHAMELESS PLUG:

One easy solution (in case anyone has missed it) is for some one to buy my car (see ad in cars for sale)

No tyre issues there. Ready supply and a multitude of compound to choose from.      

[pete g]

I have had a long conversation with BMTR who do not see a demand for the Supersoft ZZR (A24) in 13"sizes due to the MSA ruling and them moving to list1C. For that reason they will not be ordering any new tyres.. I have emailed Nick who will be posting something with more detail 

it was BMTR that told me the tyres I purchased would be fine for the next couple of years .because they were made before the cut of date of November 2014.and avon had made loads .

[Meteor Motorsport]

I will confirm that Avon have a different view to BMTR. Avon sell tyres direct to customers. I have always as have other Caterham owners bought direct.

If IF BMTR did not want to sell them and Avon wanted another formal method of selling them I would be prepared to do this under Meteor. I am sure there are many others better suited to do it but I see no need.

How many guys currently run them in WSCC? Plus the 20 or so cars currently in L7C if we stay on them.

Demand soon adds up. Now if there were no classes allowed to run them it makes it more difficult but it's still not many needed when some are sold overseas anyway. Avon really were quite adamant.

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

This thread has almost been done to death and sometimes I read it and it reminds me of headless chickens running around. Probably because there is so much emotion about it.

 

Terry has sent me an email which goes into more detail about the conversation he had with one of the main motorsport guys at Avon. There is little point in posting it as it sounds like it won;t be believed anyway and is likely to create more concern. I will however send it to the SSOT who are considering the rule changes. The main point being made is the Avon's biggest tyre distributor is saying they see such a small demand for soft ZZR tyres that they will not be re-ordering a batch.

 

Simon makes the point that Avon are adamant they will be supplying them, Can we have that in writing please ? Avon are a very difficult company to get an agreement like that out of, but stranger things have happened.

 

As David (XTR Turbo) has pointed out, the rules have been made, the SSOT will consider the FACTS they have in front of them and decide the regs for next year. If anyone has an FACTS not already disclosed then please forward them to me. I've already got enough rumour to write a novel with. 

 

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