Why 1C tyres should be categorised road legal by MSA

[windy]

Here's why I think they should change their mind.

 

They (MSA) are on about "harmonisation" of our sport. This is where the FIA are currently with tyres, which the MSA are attempting to follow. This was established in 2008.

 

Discuss.

 

These are my tyres, Dunlop CR311 R08

Emarked and labelled "for competition use".

 

1ctyrepicture 004 by windymill50, on Flickr

 

1ctyrepicture 008 by windymill50, on Flickr

 

1ctyrepicture 009 by windymill50, on Flickr

 

Letter from Dunlop:

 

dunlopletter 009 by windymill50, on Flickr

 

dunlopletter 010 by windymill50, on Flickr

 

ECE regulation 1222

 

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32009R1222

 

Exclusions to the regulation

 

Article 2

Scope

1.   This Regulation shall apply to C1, C2 and C3 tyres.

2.   This Regulation shall not apply to:

(a)

re-treaded tyres;

(b)

off-road professional tyres;

©

tyres designed to be fitted only to vehicles registered for the first time before 1 October 1990;

(d)

T-type temporary-use spare tyres;

(e)

tyres whose speed rating is less than 80 km/h;

(f)

tyres whose nominal rim diameter does not exceed 254 mm or is 635 mm or more;

(g)

tyres fitted with additional devices to improve traction properties, such as studded tyres;

(h)

tyres designed only to be fitted on vehicles intended exclusively for racing.

[pete g]

totally agree with windy  also totally p******** off with what's happened .

 

might not come out with the westfield  next year . until I know what the hell is happening . may as well just a year off and see what happens .already have to many tyres I cant use unless I change class etc etc.and then it all happens again in 4 years time.

 

 

single seater  for me I think .

[ACW]

Windy,

I suspect your preaching to the choir here but good luck with the msa, though I suspecot it would be easier to turn Richard Dawkins Into a Christian.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Copy of email I sent to the MSA

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Firstly, if you are not the appropriate person for this email to be addressed to, could you please be so kind as to forward it on to the most appropriate person.

 

I am emailing in response to the tyre regulation changes for 2016 regarding list 1B for speed event competitors, in particular road going specialist production cars. These classes are almost entirely road going kit cars. These cars are a great way to enter motorsport at a grass roots level and I would suggest that it is where the majority of newcomers to the sport first compete in these classes.

 

The vast majority of kit cars used in speed events within road going classes use 13” wheels for handling benefits as they were designed in this way. Prior to the new changes with regards to the list 1B tyres available for 2016 onwards, there was a quite a choice of 13” sized 1B tyres to choose from. By far the most popular for our application were Avon ZZR and Kumho Ecsta V70a which now find themselves on tyre list 1C. The majority of the new list 1B tyres are now only available in much larger sizes which are completely unsuitable for our types of cars. Not only this, but there are several makes and model of tyre which are designated for only pre-1990 cars which limits the choice even further. Having such a narrow choice of suitable tyres will almost definitely put off potential newcomers to the sport as they will almost certainly have a make and model of tyre which is not on the new list 1B. However, tyre list 1C now contains many of the previously favoured tyres plus others which are suited to our requirements perfectly and are legal for use on the public highway. Not only this but the majority of my fellow competitors and myself  already possess tyres that are still perfectly usable. Changing tyres (and possibly wheels) would be costly, wasteful and unnecessary.

 

In addition, many championships that we compete in are scored by awarding bonus points for beating previous best times or class records. With the poor choice of list 1B tyres now available, this becomes an almost impossible task and puts our classes at a distinct disadvantage compared to others.

 

My fellow road going specialist production car competitors therefore appeal that you see our dilemma and amend the regulations to allow us to use any tyre from list 1A, 1B or 1C as long as it is designated to be suitable for us on the public highway, which therefore by definition implies that it is road going.

 

An online petition which many of my fellow competitors have signed can be found here displaying their feelings about the subject and supporting my suggestion. I hope that you will give it proper consideration.

 

I await your response.

 

Best regards

 

John Loudon

 

Licence holder number xxxxx

[Terry Everall]

Great letter John

[Captain Colonial]

Great letter John

 

Yes... but as I look east from Leamington, is that a black helicopter I see over Southam?

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Well I've just received a read receipt....

[windy]

Well done John.

[John Loudon - Sponsorship Liaison]

Well that's the end of that then. Just received this

 

Dear John,

 

Thank you for your email, Mr Ryan has asked me to respond to you directly as he is currently away from the office.

 

Apologies if you are already aware of this but I wanted to make it clear that this is not a decision taken for any reason other than legislation. The change has been forced upon us by changes in EU/EEC regulations regarding the sale of tyres, to be sold for public highway use a tyre needs to comply with the new labelling regulations that measure factors such as rolling resistance, wet performance, road noise etc.. if a tyre does not meet the new labelling regulations then it cannot be sold for use on the public highway. Note that these EU/EEC regulations relate to the sale of tyres, not their use on the public highway.

 

The only reason a tyre would have been removed from list 1b onto 1c is because the manufacturer has confirmed that it does not comply with the new EU labelling regulations. The Tyre Panel that draw up the tyre lists is made of representatives from all the tyre manufacturers who propose the tyres they want listed in each list.

 

The regulations in S11.6.2 have not changed, in that for the Roadgoing Categories tyres must be to list 1a or 1b. As ever, championship regulations can tighten up to require only 1a or only 1b, but they cannot be opened beyond the general regulation to allow tyres that are not 1a or 1b listed.

 

And as I’m sure you can see, we cannot have general regulations that allow the use of tyres which cannot be sold for road use in the Roadgoing Categories. Competitors were given notice in the 2015 MSA yearbook that tyres may be removed from list 1b for 2016.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation, if you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Best Regards

Michael

 

 

Michael Duncan         

Technical Administrator

Motor Sports Association, Riverside Park, Colnbrook, SL3 0HG

T: +44 (0)1753 765037 | M: +44 (0)7824 663 720 | michael.duncan@msauk.org

@msauk  /msauk | www.msauk.org

The Royal Automobile Club Motor Sports Association Limited, trading as Motor Sports Association.

Registered in England and Wales 1344829. For full email disclaimer, please click here.

[pete g]

_{makes my blood boil   :angry:}           

 

[Terry Everall]

Pointless even bothering with 1C then if there are non for sale only old rubber!

Looks like we will have to bite the bullet. If they are saying 1C are not road legal then I don't see how we can have a road going class for them. So cant be used in class A to F as we would be relaxing the MSA ruling which we cant do

[XTR2Turbo]

Terry.

 

I am not sure it changes anything as most of the proposals being suggested are on the basis that the MSA did not change their stance.

 

I think that is why any option to run 1c would end up in mod prod on the day.

 

I think there is a lot of uncertainty at the moment about when / if the various tyres will be available for sale - both 1b and 1c but that is always going to be out of our control.  They can sell them for motorsport as Avon did the ZZR but what the business case now looks like for them must be an issue.

 

David

[Terry Everall]

I think if you turn up in a Road Going car with ZZRs ( or another 1C tyre ) you will not be able to claim its in Roadgoing condition as the MSA have banned 1C tyres from Roadgoing classes so you would most likely need a LOGBOOK. Also if you cant buy 1C tyres new whats the point?

[XTR2Turbo]

Terry .. all the facts are in the other thread. 

 

I don't know what the SSOC will decide (and I am completely indifferent as I will just go with what is decided)  but it was concluded in that debate that if car has MOT etc  you could run in modified production and  don't need a log book unless over 2000cc.  You will need a HANS.

 

We can only go by what is on the lists.  We have no way of predicting availablility.  If you look on AVON site they say the avon ZZS will be available in 245 13 as a 1b but they have still not released it for example.  There have been some 1b tyres that you struggled to buy this year.  and you could argue that the MSA haven't exactly helped matters !

 

David

[windy]

John, you need to tell the MSA that they do comply with the legislation because they continue to be emarked.

 

They have interpreted this incorrectly - typical MSA!

 

If they didn't comply they would lose their emark and would not be permitted to sell the tyres to us any more. It really is that simple!

 

They also need to read article 2 of ECE reg 1222.

 

Kumho have already confirmed via email to me that their 1C tyres will continue to be emarked. They will have a marking "for competition use" on the sidewall to confirm that article 2 applies to these tyres.