WSCC Speed Series Class discussion

[Onliest Smeg David]

Every novice has a chance of winning either in class or in the novice championship. If I can come 3rd in novice champs and win class a in a cross flow any one can. And I spent more on food and booze last year than I did on my car :-)

I believe the last sentence!

You do use your sprint Westie more than most on the road.

[woodman]

If I wanted a road Westy then I would build a road westy but I wanted to enter sprints and hills and run in the road classes against similar Caterhams/strikers etc . I did not originally want to fit slicks

so I dont see why my car has to be anything other than compliant with event rules in order to qualify as ' road legal'

We can introduce as many classes with restrictions as we see fit, but we should keep a class for dedicated hillclimb/sprint cars , who after all make up the main regular competitors

[Onliest Smeg David]

If it ain't broke..... :-)

Much of it isn't, but that's not a reason to not attempt to move forward.

For experts it looks about right, as the strong affirmations above indicate.

I've spoken to many members who have expressed interest in having a 'dabble' but costs don't add up. I would have afforded more sprints if it wasn't for the cost of 2nd set of wheels and tyres. Competing on 1A tyres was disheartening.

They also see the full on sprint cars they'll be put alongside and then look at theirs and are put off.

Tempting newbies in to have a go is essential if the SS is to be sustainable. As only a few will end up being able to dedicate to the time and costs (be it over a few or many years) And new experts are needed to keep it competative.

An Intermediate classification is a great idea. It will help competitors stay motivated. Perhaps competing within the current experts class structure. I would also expect some of the current 'experts' to benifit from this.

[alexander72]

That's a good point smeg and a very good point made by woodman. I think that the entry level is ideal for folks like me with limited budget and old machinery.

I aspire to become an expert but have neither the time nor budget so will come back and campaign the old cross flow next year when my diet finishes. :-)

[Onliest Smeg David]

If I wanted a road Westy then I would build a road westy but I wanted to enter sprints and hills and run in the road classes against similar Caterhams/strikers etc . I did not originally want to fit slicks

so I dont see why my car has to be anything other than compliant with event rules in order to qualify as ' road legal'

We can introduce as many classes with restrictions as we see fit, but we should keep a class for dedicated hillclimb/sprint cars , who after all make up the main regular competitors

 

Agreed Stu - the dedicated sprint/hillclimb cars should not be shackled in my opinion.

And a full on sprint car is certainly something I aspire to.

 

Opening up a more inviting competition for newbies with full on road cars though may inspire them to go further, get a sprint car and keep the numbers up.

 

I've loved my time sprinting so far, even though I haven't been 'competitive' in me 'lardy car', due to the great atmosphere and banter with a brill bunch of people.

But like all competitors we also aspire to win, or at least fight against the class leaders. I know my driving has plenty of scope for improvement, so it's not just the car that's lardy!

I'm doing 10 events this year but can feel me getting to the stage where I may back off, unless I am able to get further into the mix. Although I would expect to always do the odd few sprints.

[mark.anson]

Wow, personally I think we need to stop meddling with this.

 

I agree with John in the fact that over time (10 years) I have developed a car which fits a current class (F) and have invested a huge amount of time and money in the process. I'm not the quickest or the best by a long shot but it was my choice to develop in this way and still fit within a class of choice.

You cannot surely now say that I cannot use X gearbox (5k) or have paddles (2k) or use traction ( I don't currently) My car becomes ineligible to compete in that class, what do I do with it now?? sell it for spares, what I spent last year would buy two Westfields, my choice.

 

In my opinion target times were a brave move, and now I'd 90% agree the way forward, however if the goal posts are continually moved, that alone will put people off competing. We mustn't forget that as we compete and go quicker, we develop our cars and improve as drivers. My own SS history proves this perfectly, winning a championship in '09, taking a year or so out and came back struggling to come 3rd or 4th

 

There may possibly be ways to improve our series, personally I don't think we're doing too much wrong...are we as a Club promoting the Championship enough, do people actually know what it is?

 

Why do I compete, because I enjoy it, driving socialising, and banter. Most of my friends come from the SS, it's what drives me, it's in my blood, please stop faffing on with it...

 

Well Rich,

 

My original reply was more along the lines of John's but Richards says it all for me really. FOR GOD SAKE STOP MESSING WITH THE REGS ! 

 

For those that don't know me Ive competed in the speed series since 2005 a originally in class F for a couple of seasons and since then in class G and spent a year on the speed series organising team, the year after target times were introduced.

Over the years, like most regular competitors, I've spent enough money on the car and competing to pay a good chunk off my mortgage but money cannot buy the friends i have made over the years, which is just as important. 

Unlike Richard I've not won a championship but have done OK coming 4th in 2010 and had a class win.and now having had a couple of years off Im still trying to get back on the pace.

 

Im not sure why the current SSOT has raised this as an issue and what the grumbles are in the paddock generally and why some want it changing.

 

We still seem to be attracting novices as there are certainly plenty of new faces about that have appeared in that last couple of years since i last competed seriously so that doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

Marto says he thinks there are too many events in the championship and that he could do a whole season without meet someone else in class so is competing on paper.

Its a fair comment but one of the advantages of having plenty of events spread across the country is it does actually keep the travelling costs down as there are plenty to choose from spread across the country. There has in the past been complaints that there was too many events in the South or North making travel cost too prohibitive if you wanted to do 10 events. I think we have it about right at the moment in the number of events and the spread and it good that we occasionally get a new venue to go to.

 

The current class structure is about right I would say and the biggest problem we have in the speed series is that the regs keep getting messed about with, especially the target times, which is peeing people off especially the regular competitors.

[davidgh]

This is getting heated 

 

Fact 1: WSCC runs only two events over a calendar of about thirty. Ergo, we need to make our championship attractive to organizers so that we get invited.

 

Supposition: the nearer we make our classes to most other clubs', the more convivial the day's sprinting will be.

 

Fact 2: some of the fastest kit-car competitors in the country are WSCC member.

 

Conjecture: fact 2 adds to the attraction of a WSCC invitation for organizing clubs.

 

Fact 3: many of our faster competitors compete in other championships as well.

 

Conjecture: if we introduced SS regs to slow fast guys down, they would be less competitive in other championships. I'd choose to stay fast.

 

Fact: we have members all over the country. Many don't want to trek hundreds of miles to compete. That's why we try to provide lots of events.

 

Fact: if you take up golf, snooker, tennis, judo, etc. you don't expect to be in a position to win from day one. Why should sprinters think differently? This isn't primary school.

 

Fact: motor sport is expensive if you take it seriously. Twas ever thus. Have fun by all means, but don't expect to compete with Rich and John who have invested ten years and much cash in their cars.

 

Fact: the Club does not have the resource to police complex regulations. (Just put your car on this rolling road please, Sir!)

 

 

IMHO, the role of the SS is to encourage our competitors to compete with the best in the country if they can, and simultaneously to provide a friendly introduction to motorsport for the beginner. These objectives are not mutually exclusive. The club (and especially SS ethos) is enormously friendly. There is absolutely no shortage of well-meant advice available at events, And any Club member suffering a problem will find his car surrounded by knowledgeable helpers in a flash.

The only error we make is to try to allow every competitor to win something. Whenever you go to a sprint, you will always find someone against whom you can have a close battle. That person will not necessarily be in the same class, but the competitive edge is still available. Club motor sport is about having fun  --  trying to go home thinking that you drove better that day than you have before.

I am convinced that target times are the least imperfect way of comparing performances across many different tracks and events. We have them, and they are settling down (far fewer "102"s occurring nowadays). I think we should do nothing that is not forced on us to render them invalid.

We have classes designed to allow a progression through the motor  sport learning curve. Yes, they don't (and realistically, can't) control spending on engine power, but the logic is that if you have spent many thousands on getting yourself 500bhp, you are not going to enjoy putting that power through synchro box, and neither are you going to be competitive with others sporting the same power if you do. Ergo, the classes are to some extent self-regulating.

 

Personally, the only thing I would change is the 1700cc limit. Our "Zetec anomaly" was always going to be exploited (sorry Ade) eventually, it encourages the development of cars which have no relevance in the wider world of sprinting, and it means that our 1800 Zetec competitors find themselves in a class away from their WSCC status at almost all events.

 

Finally  --  somebody suggested (tongue in cheek) abolishing the overall champion. Whilst I would not go that far, I certainly think that our most direct comparators are within class. I think we should give more kudos to the class champions (hats off to you, gentlemen) and less to the big pot.

[stephenh]

My first post on this thread was rather a long one, with the risk that it got confusing.

In summary, Classes A & B are doing their job in attracting new entrants/novices to the Speed Series.

I think classes C, D, E, & F seem to be achieving their aims. As far as I can see, each has several regular competitors in them. Whether the cut off should be 1700cc. or 1800cc. should I think primarily be a matter for those directly affected to comment on, so I do not have a view either way on it.

Classes G and H speak for themselves, and are obvious necessary classes, otherwise there is nowhere for those on non-road legal cars to compete in the championship.

As to target times, no system of scoring is going to be perfect, they are all compromises. However, I think the present system is about as good as we can achieve.

The big problem, which we have to address, because it isn't going to go away, is what to do about tyres in the road legal classes. A change is likely to be forced on us by the MSA whether we like it or not. And don't forget that changes introduced by our department of transport, or more likely by Brussels, may well affect us. If we can no longer use super soft tyres in road legal classes then we all have to look elsewhere. It may be we end up on less extreme tyres, such as the new Toyo R888R. Whether that means we should have a period on control tyres I don't know, not necessarily, but I can see "front runners" spending an aweful lot on experimenting with various different tyres if not.

So in summary, with the possible exception of tyres, I'm agreeing with the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" brigade!

[Onliest Smeg David]

NOVICES

Re...  "Classes A & B are doing their job in attracting new entrants/novices to the Speed Series" & "We still seem to be attracting novices as there are certainly plenty of new faces about that have appeared in that last couple of years since i last competed seriously so that doesn't seem to be a problem"

2014 - there were 34 entries, 25 competed of which 9 did more than 6 events. With 23 in classes A & B.

2015 - only 18 Novices entered! With 14 in A & B

 

At least 2 novices are 1800 zetecs, changing to 1700cc for A would exclude these from competing. 

There are a large number of 1800 zetec Westfields out here and IMO they should be encouraged to start off in this excellent, relatively inexpensive Motorsport.

When progressing beyond Novice I can see the merit in aligning more with other championships so that Westfields continue to dominate on the day competition.

 

Re "you don't expect to be in a position to win from day one. Why should sprinters think differently? This isn't primary school" completely agree David. In all other disciplines I've competed in there are a majority of 'Amateurs' / Novice competitors who compete within there level banding. As they develop some progress up the ladder, through hard work and training. This keeps competition at the highest levels bouyant and retirements are quickly filled with new blood.

I have competed at a high level (well County anyway) in a number of sports and have never expected to win, but for all it was a very level playing field technically (excluding with Horses!)

Put all Novice drivers in my Westfield' and I would not be the Championship winner at the end of the season, but I would probably be in the mix.

I would not want all Westfields to be equal, as the diversity is what is so brilliant about our cars with the innovation and development of the leading experts being awesome. Nothing should hinder this overall within the SS.

 

BUT I strongly believe the future of a strong Championship is through encouraging new blood to start out in the sport. Once they've caught the bug, hopefully some will progress (whether developing their own cars over a short or long period of time, or buying ready made full on sprint specs) into future Class challengers within the SS and on the day.

 

Step 1 was the 6 event competition (my motivation last year to do 5 events minimum) I feel this should have a Novice category as well.

Step 2 was the excellent work to bring in more events, enabling less time and travel costs (I am competing in 10 events this year as a result of this)

Step 3 would be to introduce a more accessible Novice entry level for cars with windscreens/wipers/heaters. Possibly within Class A and B (e.g. Classes A0, A1, B0, B1)

Step 4 would be to introduce an Intermediate level within the current expert class structure (without changing class regs)

 

It would be good to get feedback from Non Competitors, as they are the potential new blood.

What would encourage them to get started?

[alexander72]

Three very good comments of equal merit.

I think we need to just cut to the chase and confirm we need a cross flow class..... Oops I'd be on my own..... :-)

[XTR2Turbo]

Perhaps it would be better if we could in some way split comments / feedback between those just starting out and directing comments to attracting / retaining novices and those that are experts and competing in WSCC and nationally as clearly quite different concerns.

[alexander72]

Thats a good point Mr Birch. 

[Nick Algar - Competition Secretary]

Perhaps it would be better if we could in some way split comments / feedback between those just starting out and directing comments to attracting / retaining novices and those that are experts and competing in WSCC and nationally as clearly quite different concerns.

 

I could start another thread ?

 

There are some interesting comments coming out. I would really like to hear from NON SPEED SERIES DRIVERS as well please. 

 

As Championship Coorodinator I feel we still have a very strong championship and I do agree with the those that say stop changing the regs. But I am also very conscious that there is a perception that new people can't win or even stand a chance to don;t enter. Hence my comment of wanting to hear from the club members who do not compete.

 

By the same token David Hussey makes a good point, is it important to have so many classes  / trophies that they are easy to win, should it not be more difficult ?

 

We could of course follow the British Sprint & Hillclimb Championships way of deciding the overall winner. At each event the fastest Speed Series member get 12 point and then on down to 1. Then just add up the best 10 events. This would tend to favour G&H ? but some current D & F guys have been very quick.

 

Just to add some topics for discussion.

[davidgh]

I would really like to hear from NON SPEED SERIES DRIVERS as well please. 

 

 

 

Nick

 

Might be better to start a thread in the "Start Line" or "S&N".

 

D

[Paul Aspden]

A separate thread outside speed series, hillclimbing and racing is a good idea to gauge interest in competing. Some seeing this may think that there is more on fighting than competition!

The main thrust of this thread seems to revolve around bringing in new novice competitors, which I am all for. But don't forget those of us who have been in the sport supporting this club since the mid 90's and have invested greatly in our cars, and supporting the club.